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bbcoach
01-05-2014, 02:21 AM
Ok guys needing some advice on this PCT.. This is not my first and i have done PCT before but i am adding few items..
so cycle was..
1-12 750mg test E
1-8 100 mg var

so here is my question... I am about to finish up and i have been using HCG 500 2x week the last 2 weeks and have 2 more to finish.
Start PCT with
Aromasin 25 eod for 4weeks
nolva 60/40/20/20
clomid 150/100/50/50

what do you guys think and when should the Aromasin start? immediately at end of cycle or wait until PCT starts?

Nitefox
01-05-2014, 02:23 AM
That is a little strong on the Nolva and Clomid imho.

enrod
01-05-2014, 02:29 AM
yeah bro like above, you don't need that much, hang on to your aromasin for a larger cycle and run it during your course as an AI. I would run the nolva alone for post with this cycle.

bbcoach
01-05-2014, 02:35 AM
I have ran a adex during cycle to help keep estrogen down....
what would you guys suggest on the nolva and clomid?

beanlicker
01-05-2014, 03:50 AM
I use this same cycle all the time....I would keep the Nolva on hand in case you need it. For PCT on this cycle I would take Clomid 50/50/25/25mg.

kubes
01-05-2014, 03:56 AM
60 for nolva is to much i would drop it to 40 for the first 2 weeks 40/40/20/20

VIOLATER
01-11-2014, 04:42 AM
60 for nolva is to much i would drop it to 40 for the first 2 weeks 40/40/20/20

exactly. imo AI is also needed in every pct. now that u didnt need the aromasin during cycle sides, use it with the nolva. 25eod/25eod/12.5eod/12.5eod.....then throw the clomid in the trash!

beanlicker
01-11-2014, 06:09 AM
http://brotherhoodofpain.com/showthread.php?11019-Why-is-Clomid-so-important-in-a-PCT

Why is Clomid so important in a PCT- Clomiphene(clomid)--works by blocking estrogen at the pituitary. The pituitary sees less estrogen, and makes more LH. More LH means that the Leydig cells in the testis make more testosterone.
When your on Cycle the pituitary thinks your testis are making enough TEST and the LH falls off and the pituitary turns off..
You need to understand that there are two places your body makes LH one is the pituitary the other is the is your testis, which makes both luteinizing hormone (LH) (for natural test conversion, and FSH sperm count and motility)
How does Clomid really work---well you need to understand that in your testis, better yet the Leydig cell is where Testosterone is made. From the conversion of LH. See LH is what your testis use to make Natural test.
But why is Clomid so important in a PCT. Well Clomid, not only blocks estrogen at the pituitary so the pituitary can make more LH--BUT THE PITUITARY ALSO CONTROLS THE MAKING OF TESTOSTERONE IN THE TESTIS So if your pituitary is not functioning correctly your recover time will take longer during a PCT.
Always use Clomid in your PCT...
My little graph how test is made..lol
Normal..
pituitary---->LH------>Leydig cells---->test----little estor(guys need it to)---back to the pituitary and the process starts again
On cycle
pituitary---->LH------>Leydig cells---->Doesnt make test cause your body has enough pituitary shuts down.
Off cycle with clomid
Clomid blocks Estor from the pituitary---->LH------>Leydig cells---->test---->Clomid blocks Estor----Pituitary makes even more LH---and continues while on PCT--so every week your Pituitary makes even more LH when taking clomid, and will tell the testis MAKE MORE NATURAL TEST!!!!!

beanlicker
01-11-2014, 06:15 AM
http://brotherhoodofpain.com/showthread.php?10067-Aromasin-and-PCT

Aromasin and PCT


I have been reading as much as I can on the use of Aromasin in PCT. How it works and why? First there are plenty of write ups on standard PCT on this site. So I'll just skim over Clomid and Nolva quickly.
Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally in the same family and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) they act in two ways. One is by changing up the binding capacity of the receptor, then in others they can actually act as estrogen, activating the receptor. In men, both of these drugs act as anti-estrogens in their capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus and stimulate the release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). LH output by the pituitary will be increased as a result, which in turn can increase the level of testosterone produced at the testes.


That's a quick summary of why we use both Clomid and Nolvadex on a PCT. The dose has been wildly played with over the years and guys have figured out that a dose of 100/100/50/50 of clomid and 40/40/20/20 of Nolvadex has proven to work very well.
HCG is another debatable form of PCT. Over the years I have found that HCG is best served with "ON" cycle use. It prevents an extended period of HPTA shutdown therefore making a reboot of that axis much more feasible and without heavy blast doses of hcg which in my opinion does as much detriment as it does benefit th user. Heavy doses will trigger the production of more estrogen counteracting the entire purpose of PCT. Which is to re-regulate the levels of test vs estrogen to the appropriate levels of homeostasis. It was this topic that led me to the Idea of using Aromasin as part of PCT. What I found researching this topic was quite interesting.


Well, Aromatase Inhibitors come in 2 types. Type 1 and Type 2. First Type 1 AI's bind by a process called hydroxylation; this hydroxylation process produces an unbreakable covalent bond between the inhibitor and the enzyme protein. Now the enzyme is permanently blocked even after all of the inhibitor is removed and can only be resumed by new enzyme synthesis. Type 2 Inhibitors on the other hand function all the same in their ability to reduce the binding process of the enzyme and the receptor. Except once the drug is discontinued or the concentration of the drug is sparse enough it is possible for the enzyme to seperate itself from the Inhibitor and eventually will allow renewed competion between the Inhibitor and the Enzyme for the receptor site. Aromasin is a type 1 AI and once it does what it's purpose is we don't need to continue use. Letro and Adex are Type 2 Ai's and the success of those drugs are continigent on the Doses and protocol of which we use them. Once you stop them you expose yourself to an Estrogen rebound. Now having said all of that there are also many other reason to why Aromasin use is beneficial to a Bodybuilder. One is Arimidex/Anastrozole Decreases IGF-1 18% while Aromasin/Exemestane Increases IGF-1 28%. Another is Aromasin is also known to decrease estrogen between 90-95% while boosting Endogenous Testosterone by about 60%, and also help out your free to bound testosterone ratio by lowering levels of Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG), by about 20% (12)�SHBG is that nasty enzyme that binds to testosterone and renders it useless for building muscle.
So let put all of this together. We need to ask ourselves what exactly are our goals for a successful PCT? 1) Reboot the HPT Axis; that's where the Clomid/Nolva/Hcg and Aromasin come in to play 2) Control the conversion of Aromatase as the Levels of exogenous Test decline; aromasin is scientifically proven to permanently deactivte the Aromatase Enzyme for the life of the Enzyme. In essence there is no possible Estrogen rebound as a byproduct of the Medications discontinued use.


I recommend running Aromasin @ 12.5/12.5/.6.25/6.25 alongside the standard Clomid Nolvadex Pct for optimum recovery and zero estrogen rebound.
So all of these facts are just the tip of the iceberg. There are more interesting facts and write ups all over the Web. Some are very scientific but I get bored with all of that mumbo jumbo talk. I need it said to me in leymans terms. So I wanted to simplify what I have read. I hope this helps somebody who has questions about this topic.

kubes
01-11-2014, 02:01 PM
Nice write up bean. So in the event that estrogen is kept within normal range during your cycle with the proper use of an ai are you still suggesting to run aromasin with pct? I am having a hard time understanding why you would? If your estrogen levels are kept in check with the use of an ai right up to pct then exogenous testosterone should be low by the time we start pct. most excess estrogen is caused from aromatization which wouldn't be an issue anymore right?

beanlicker
01-11-2014, 09:41 PM
Thanks bro, but I should have clarified that those were posts made by other BOP members which is why I posted the links. Although I do not agree with the all of the info in the Aromasin article, I do feel that it contains some accurate and relevant information to this topic. I should have taken the time to just write out my perspective, but I was being lazy. So, here is my .02…….

Firstly, it should be stated that AAS based on the DHT structure are not subject to the aromatization process.

Now, assuming that you have maintained your estrogen level in normal range during cycle…. you should not need AI during pct. But this is where I stress the importance of blood work.

Yes, many steroid compounds do convert to estrogen via the aromatization process and some are worse than others. Also, it should be noted that estrogen will spike after a cycle. Did I mention the importance of blood work?

As most of us know, high levels of estrogen can lead to gyno, water retention, fat storage etc. and lowering estrogen too much will mess up your blood lipids. That being said, estrogen is necessary because it plays a role in IGF-1 levels, it can act as an anti-inflammatory and is also helpful when bulking because it can promote higher androgen receptor concentrations.

Higher levels of AAS equal higher estrogen levels and require more intense hormone control and heavier PCT. Our goal during cycle is to level out our estrogen. In PCT, we are also trying to achieve equilibrium of the HPTA, getting our FSH and LH back to normal. You know it......blood work!

When necessary, AI can be used during cycle to lower estrogen and can be used in PCT (usually in conjunction with a SERM) to get back to homeostasis. However, lowering estrogen with strong AI's can have a negative effect on cholesterol levels so always start with a low dose and adjust accordingly.

So, what is the secret to keeping your estrogen level balanced….the correct answer is that it depends on the person and the quantity/type of AAS used and the only way to truly know if you are within the clinically normal range is to have blood work done.

I typically run a low of AI during cycle and have a SERM on hand if I feel gyno symptoms arise. IMO, if I have to resort to a SERM, make sure blood work is done at that time! At this point, I would reduce the dosage of aromatizing AAS in my cycle or replace them with non-aromatizing steroids. Remember, blood work is the only true way to know if you are staying within range!

I hope this helps,
BL

kubes
01-11-2014, 10:45 PM
Very nice write up bean! I been reading more and more about people using aromasin during pct and it just didnt make sense if you had estro under control but as you stated that makes a lot of sense! thanks for taking the time to list your thoughts.