The order is in: My next cycle will be..

[wombraider]

Hello everyone, this is my third cycle. I played some college ball and did it back then. Did it again in 2007. Now I'm back and at it again. Here is what it looks like

Test E 500wk 1-14
Primo 400wk 1-14
Anavar 100mg ed 1-8
Adex .25 ed 4-14
Test Prop 500wk Book ending; so the first two and after the 14th week for 2 weeks.

Nolva
Clomid on hand if need be.

How does it look?:0010:

[enrod]

Looks good to me. I'm not sure you need the adex, or need to run it as often if you prefer to use it.

Maybe .5 e3d if you're having bad estrogen-related side effects. I doubt it though with 500 test/week.

Should be a nice lean bulker IMO!

[wombraider]

The goal is to gain a few lean pounds and drop down to 8-9% bf

[darklord]

nice cycle

[kubes]

Do you know you need that much Adex from previous cycles? If not .25 eod is a good starting point

[wombraider]

Yea I figured it might be a little much I'll start out e3d and see how it goes.

[bigsam]

Looks good to me. I'm not sure you need the adex, or need to run it as often if you prefer to use it.

Maybe .5 e3d if you're having bad estrogen-related side effects. I doubt it though with 500 test/week.

Should be a nice lean bulker IMO!

I agree. You need to start off with the lowest dosage of adex possible bro. Start low and adjust accordingly.

Besides that looks great.

[wombraider]

Could adex effect gains if taken to often?

[kubes]

Could adex effect gains if taken to often?

Sure your body needs a healthy amount of circulating estrogen. .25 eod should be a good starting point based on the amount of gear you are running

[enrod]

Could adex effect gains if taken to often?

Absolutely. The added estrogen brings alot of positive growth to a cycle. However, having a low dose AI helps to minimize estrogen getting out of control (sore nips/gyno/etc). When running a high aromatizing cycle, like your typical bulking high dose cycles, you'd want to run a AI for sure. With the doses your using, you probably won't need it. If I were you, I'd hold onto the adex until I started to have soreness in the nips

[wombraider]

Alright I actually have two options for this next cycle. I can do the above as mentioned or run:

Test E 500 wk
Test Prop 400 wk 1-2 and then book ending it.
EQ 500 wk
Dbol 50 ed...

the only reason I was thinking of this one first is to get a bulk in the winter and then cut in the summer. whatcha all think?

[bulk_cut]

If it was me, I would do the first one. I like Primo and Var much better than EQ and dbol. But if you're going to run #2 I would bump the EQ up to 600mg/week run it for 16 weeks and extend the test out a couple weeks beyond it. Remember, EQ will thicken your blood so donating blood every two months is a good idea. Also keep on eye on blood pressure with it.

[Herc]

Just run the AI. IT WONT HINDER MUSCLE GAINS. It will keep the bloat off of u and the estrogen in check. Like I have said before, I just don't buy the "estrogen helps build more muscle" hype. It's easier to control estrogen from the start instead of trying to play catch up after u notice a problem. I think some people confuse water weight for muscle gains but this is just my opinion and personal experience...everyone responds differently.

[enrod]

I see what you mean Herc. I think the fear is having TOO low estrogen in the body (which can happen with a strong AI), which can lead to aches and pains in the joints. Having that extra fluid is good for the size you are putting on, in a way I believe it's your body's reaction to what you're doing to it. Why tell your body to stop it unless it's making the wrong decision?

I found an interesting read while researching estrogen affect on muscle growth. I quote;

Estrogen and GH/IGF-1
>To date the most common explanation for why anti-estrogens may be slightly counterproductive to growth in the sports literature has been the suggestion that estrogen plays a role in the production of growth hormone and IGF-1. IGF-1 (insulin like growth factor 1, formerly known as somatomedin is of course an anabolic product released primarily in the liver via GH stimulus. IGF-1 is responsible for the growth promoting effects (increased nitrogen retention, cell proliferation) we associate with growth hormone therapy. We do know that women have higher levels of growth hormone than men, and also that GH secretion varies over the course of the menstrual cycle in direct correlation with estrogen levels. Estrogen is likewise often looked at as a key trigger in the release of GH in women under normal physiological situations.

It is also suggested that the aromatization of androgens to estrogens in men plays an important role in the release and production of GH and IGF-1. This was evidenced by a 1993 study of hypogonadal men, comparing the effects of testosterone replacement therapy on GH and IGF-1 levels with and without the addition of tamoxifen. When the anti-estrogen tamoxifen was given, GH and IGF-1 levels were notably suppressed, while both values were elevated with the administration of testosterone enanthate alone. Another study has shown 300mg of testosterone enanthate weekly (which elevated estradiol levels) to cause a slight IGF-1 increase in normal men, whereas 300mg weekly of nandrolone decanoate (a poor substrate for aromatase that caused a lowering of estradiol levels in this study) would not elevate IGF-1 levels. Yet another study shows that GH and IGF-1 secretion is increased with testosterone administration on males with delayed puberty, while dihydrotestosterone (non-aromatizable) seems to suppress GH and IGF-1 secretion, presumably due to its strong anti-estrogenic/gonadotropin suppressing action. All of these studies seem to support a direct, estrogen-dependant mechanism for GH and/or IGF-1 release in men. It is difficult to say at this point just how important estrogen is to IGF-1 production as it relates to the promotion of anabolism in the steroid using athlete, however it remains an interesting subject to investigate.

Glucose Utilization and Estrogen
Estrogen may play an even more vital role in promoting an anabolic state by affecting glucose utilization in muscle tissue. This occurs via an altering the level of available glucose 6-phosphate dehydrogenase. G6PD is an important enzyme in the support anabolism, as it is directly tied to the use of glucose for muscle growth and recuperation. During the period of regeneration after skeletal muscle damage, levels of G6PD are shown to rise dramatically. G6PD enzyme plays a vital role in what is known as the pentose phosphate pathway, and as such this rise is believed to enhance the PPP related process in which nucleic acids and lipids are synthesized in cells; fostering the repair of muscle tissue.

A 1980 study at the University of Maryland has shown that levels of glucose 6-phosphate dehydrogenase rise after administration of testosterone propionate, and further that the aromatization of testosterone to estradiol is directly responsible for this increase.[x] In this study neither dihydrotestosterone nor fluoxymesterone could mimic the affect of testosterone propionate on levels of G6PD, an affect that was also blocked by the addition of the potent anti-aromatase 4-hydroxyandrostenedione to testosterone. 17-beta estradiol administration caused a similar increase in G6PD, which was not noticed when its inactive estrogen isomer 17-alpha estradiol (unable to bind the estrogen receptor) was given. An anti-androgen could also not block the positive action of testosterone. This study provides one of the first palatable explanations for a direct and positive effect of estrogen on muscle tissue.

What does this all mean?

It is a long held belief among athletes that estrogen maintenance drugs can slightly hinder muscle gains during steroid therapy with a strong aromatizable steroid such as testosterone. Whether or not we have plausibly explained this remains to be seen, however the above evidence certainly does provide strong support for a direct and positive affect of estrogen on growth. Does this mean we should abandon estrogen maintenance drugs? I don’t think that should be the case. It is important to remember that estrogen can deliver many unwanted effects such as increased water retention, fat deposition and the development of female breast tissue when it becomes too active in the male body. Clearly if we plan a high-dose cycle with an aromatizable steroid, anti-estrogens will be an important inclusion. However we cannot ignore the suggestion of using estrogen maintenance drugs only when they are necessary to combat visible side effects during mild to moderately dosed cycles, especially if bulk is the ultimate goal of the athlete.


by William Llewellyn

[Freak]

Hello everyone, this is my third cycle. I played some college ball and did it back then. Did it again in 2007. Now I'm back and at it again. Here is what it looks like

Test E 500wk 1-14
Primo 400wk 1-14
Anavar 100mg ed 1-8
Adex .25 ed 4-14
Test Prop 500wk Book ending; so the first two and after the 14th week for 2 weeks.

Nolva
Clomid on hand if need be.

How does it look?:0010:

Looks awesome bro had to log in to tell you! Lots of lean mass and solid strength incoming! Having a little bit of masteron or tren ace in there, OOOweee!
:)
Freak

[wombraider]

Thanks freak, so freaking excited I'm like a child waiting for xmas.