My experience with TRT, ready to try again

[mattr2]

Hey Bros,

I've been on the board for a while and have learned a ton so far but still have so many questions. I need some help understanding my numbers, the effect of the gear, and how to calm down the sides. I'm a little confused and could use some advice. I started on HRT with the goal of increasing my test.

First, my goals. I don't want to blast through any hormone levels as the sides hit me fairly severely. I seem to be fairly sensitive to all medicines. In fact, my main issues and concerns are too high of readings. I want to have high-normal readings testosterone (750-900), and normal readings estradiol (20-25). My main interests are anti-aging, fat loss, mental clarity, and overall well being. I am not looking to get huge, but would like that athletic look. I have been working out quite heavily for 2.5 years. Height is 5'9", weight is 190 lbs. BF is about 22%.

I started with HRT at a local clinic to boost my Test levels. The Dr didn't impress me at all so I've basically given up on him. All he did was write Rxs. Not much advice or knowledge shared when I asked what I thought were basic questions. After 5 months, I gave up on his protocol becuase the sides were too much for me to figure out. I then started on HGH. It's been about 2.5 months since I started HGH.

Here's my log. Thanks for reading. Hopefully this makes sense.

Age 46 / male

2017-7-27
Baseline Labs (quest)


394 - Testosterone (ng/dL)
7.33 - Free Testosterone
22 - Estradiol


Protocol


Clomid - 50 MG x 3d per week (150 mg / week)
HCG - 100 units x 2d per week (200 units / week)


Sides - Body odor (had to shower 2X a day), Bad skin (large ones that stay around forever, especially on neck and chest)

2017-10-17
Labs (quest)


1072 - Testosterone
22.9 - Free Testosterone
57.3 - Estradiol


Sides - continued BO, skin worsens

2017-11-15
- change in dosage because the sides were just too much


Protocol


25 mg Clomid - eod (87.5 mg / week)
57 units HCG - every three days (133 units / week)
.25 mg Anastrozole (AI) - every 4 days


2017-12-4
- increased AI to .25 mg e3d

2017-12-20
- started HGH 2iu per day (jintropin)

2017-12-26
Labs (labcorp)


1168 - Testosterone
25.5 - Free Testosterone
57.9 - Estradiol


2017-12-30
- Estradiol readings are still to high. Increase AI to.25 EOD, still had major skin issues.

- reduced Clomid to 25 mg every 3 days

- Sides, continued BO, skin worsens

2018-1-7
- Stopping all HRT due to high estro levels and extremely bad skin that won't heal. Didn't feel comfortable continuing due to possible gyno risks and heavy sides.

- Took 2 more .25 MG AI to bring down Estro levels


2018-2-8
Labs (labcorp)


423 - Testosterone
24.8 - Estradiol



As you can see, I could not get the HRT for testosterone to balance. My readings we always really high on both test and estro even though I reduced dosage of clomid and HCG by as much a 50%. When I increased the AI, my skin only worsened. I must be adverse to the type of AI. I did feel pretty amazing with high test, energy was AWESOME, workouts were intense, mental clarity was on point. But, do I really want it to be THAT high, in the 1200 range? Seems like my body just converts the excess test to estrogen when I cant get under control. I would be very happy in the 750-900 range. My main concern is the estr levels above 30, which I was not able to achieve.

Questions I have:


As I cut back my HCG and Clomid dosage, my test and estrogen readings increased as well as the sides. Should I have increased the Anastrozole even more that the recommended dosage?
If I were to start up the HRT again, should I try a different AI? Anastrozole is the generic version of Arimidex. Any other recommendations there? I'd like to maintain a 750-900 testosterone reading while maintain a 20-25 estradiol reading ideally.


I started HGH protocol which in late December which is going well. I've posted my HGH questions in another section. I am not cruising at 4 IUs and feel pretty good.

Thanks!

[jnab]

Hi Mattr

Many thanks for this thread bro. Very interested in your protocol although while i follow a similar one i'm afraid I won't be of much help.
Surprised a doctor at a local clinic put you on TRT with 394 test, fwiw i tested @400 6 weeks ago, didn't ask, and just self medicated 25mg clomid eod, besides 4 IU HGH. Going tomorrow for bloods, will hopefully be able to contribute more to this thread once the results come out.
But no negative side effects from clomid, except possibly on the mood, but that is hard to judge. Some people complain they hate the feeling beeing on clomid while GH is supposed to give one a better sense of well being. My mood is quite volatile, which would be usual without those medicines. i'm not sure about the positive effects of clomid though, curious to see the current test and estrogen levels
your test numbers are very good @25mg clomid eod, have you heard/read the HCG helped quite a bit on top of clomid ? i wouldn't mind trying, some people also use HCG monotherapy with success it appears.
Besides when it comes to TRT Testosterone injections seem to be the favored method by far, not sure how this would work out for your estrogen levels though ( my issue with it is shutting off HPTA btw, with clomid or HCG you can just stop the treatment for whatever reason without much of an issue, whereas with testosterone injection, you end up with no more natural test production and trying to stop the treatment appears to be a difficult and mostly losing battle)

good luck

[jnab]

Besides about HCG @200IU per week and less, how do you get your HCG ? It seems to be selling mostly in 5000iu vials and bigger, mixing it with sterile water you would be wasting 90% of the bottle, just a little less with bac water.

[mattr2]

Hi Mattr

Many thanks for this thread bro. Very interested in your protocol although while i follow a similar one i'm afraid I won't be of much help.
Surprised a doctor at a local clinic put you on TRT with 394 test, fwiw i tested @400 6 weeks ago, didn't ask, and just self medicated 25mg clomid eod, besides 4 IU HGH. Going tomorrow for bloods, will hopefully be able to contribute more to this thread once the results come out.
But no negative side effects from clomid, except possibly on the mood, but that is hard to judge. Some people complain they hate the feeling beeing on clomid while GH is supposed to give one a better sense of well being. My mood is quite volatile, which would be usual without those medicines. i'm not sure about the positive effects of clomid though, curious to see the current test and estrogen levels
your test numbers are very good @25mg clomid eod, have you heard/read the HCG helped quite a bit on top of clomid ? i wouldn't mind trying, some people also use HCG monotherapy with success it appears.
Besides when it comes to TRT Testosterone injections seem to be the favored method by far, not sure how this would work out for your estrogen levels though ( my issue with it is shutting off HPTA btw, with clomid or HCG you can just stop the treatment for whatever reason without much of an issue, whereas with testosterone injection, you end up with no more natural test production and trying to stop the treatment appears to be a difficult and mostly losing battle)

good luck

Yeah, I dont think I had super low T when I went in, but I had heard of the great results from friends at this clinic. The Dr. said he wanted me higher so the clomid + HCG route was recommended.

A month after stopping HRT, I dropped down to 413 and my estrogen levels fell back into range as well.

I wonder if I just looked at the HCG only and no Clomid if the test numbers would increase just a bit. Like I said, I am not looking to blast through a 1000 on test readings. I just want to be in the mid-to-high normal range. It seems the drugs that had the worst sides were clomid and the AI.

One thing of note, I went on a cruise for 8 days where I couldn't take the HCG. The Dr. told me to take a clomid pill every day to make up for it. Thats when it really got bad for me and I never really recovered from that week.

[mattr2]

Besides about HCG @200IU per week and less, how do you get your HCG ? It seems to be selling mostly in 5000iu vials and bigger, mixing it with sterile water you would be wasting 90% of the bottle, just a little less with bac water.

It was by Dr's prescription. There is a compounding lab/pharmacy nearby the Dr's office that will mix the HCG at no cost. I think I paid $90 for a 2x 5000 IUs per vial of HCG. I would pin a full 1cc syringe per dose.

[jnab]

Yeah, I dont think I had super low T when I went in, but I had heard of the great results from friends at this clinic. The Dr. said he wanted me higher so the clomid + HCG route was recommended.

A month after stopping HRT, I dropped down to 413 and my estrogen levels fell back into range as well.

I wonder if I just looked at the HCG only and no Clomid if the test numbers would increase just a bit. Like I said, I am not looking to blast through a 1000 on test readings. I just want to be in the mid-to-high normal range. It seems the drugs that had the worst sides were clomid and the AI.

One thing of note, I went on a cruise for 8 days where I couldn't take the HCG. The Dr. told me to take a clomid pill every day to make up for it. Thats when it really got bad for me and I never really recovered from that week.

Thanks Mattr2, I read your posts about skin issues, it sure sounded nasty. You might look into HCG monotherapy or replacing clomid with nolvadex, some people seem to support Nolva better than Clomid. I'll sure have a closer look at the HCG/clomid therapy, you results were very good - except for side effects- and when you stopped it appears you just fell back to your baseline, which isn't alarming.
Need to study the estrogen issue though, it seems many guys on TRT don't take any AI with test levels around 1000, not sure if AI become more necessary with HCG.

Besides I don't understand the part of HCG, if you buy a 5000iu vial and pin 200iu per week you need 25 weeks to go through one bottle. If it comes in lyophilized form and you need to mix it with sterile or bac water, at most you could keep the vial 1 month. Than a full 1 cc syringe is way too much for 1/50 of the bottle, can you please clarify ? I've never used HCG and apparently am missing something

[mattr2]

Besides I don't understand the part of HCG, if you buy a 5000iu vial and pin 200iu per week you need 25 weeks to go through one bottle. If it comes in lyophilized form and you need to mix it with sterile or bac water, at most you could keep the vial 1 month. Than a full 1 cc syringe is way too much for 1/50 of the bottle, can you please clarify ? I've never used HCG and apparently am missing something

So I am pinning 1000 IUs per pin, which is 100 units on the syringe. The Rx is for 2x 5000 IU vials, so the supply is for roughly one month. Does that make sense?

Researching the Nolvadex vs Clomid, it appears Clomid is an anti-estrogen as well. I thought Clomid was used to boost natural test production. I was on Clomid and the estradiol readings were still sky high, so I am a little confused while Anastrozole with Clomid was ineffective.

[jnab]

So I am pinning 1000 IUs per pin, which is 100 units on the syringe. The Rx is for 2x 5000 IU vials, so the supply is for roughly one month. Does that make sense?

Researching the Nolvadex vs Clomid, it appears Clomid is an anti-estrogen as well. I thought Clomid was used to boost natural test production. I was on Clomid and the estradiol readings were still sky high, so I am a little confused while Anastrozole with Clomid was ineffective.

Yes that makes sense !
I'm rereading about clomid and nolvadex treatment, it's standard that E2 goes up along T while taking clomid, and a lot of the negative side effects when using clomid for TRT are linked to E2. BTW it seems side effects increase very fast along the dosage, so that makes sense you doubling the dose during the cruise wrecked havoc.
Some replace Clomid with nolvadex, but upon double checking it doesn't sound great. For one Nolva suppresses IGF1 levels more than clomid, and the fact clomid acts negatively on IGF1 has me keen on looking for other options. Will check later the TRT treatments including HCG, as it seems HCG doesn't harm IGF1 levels (i didn't find that out througha quick google search at least).

[mattr2]

Yes that makes sense !
I'm rereading about clomid and nolvadex treatment, it's standard that E2 goes up along T while taking clomid, and a lot of the negative side effects when using clomid for TRT are linked to E2. BTW it seems side effects increase very fast along the dosage, so that makes sense you doubling the dose during the cruise wrecked havoc.
Some replace Clomid with nolvadex, but upon double checking it doesn't sound great. For one Nolva suppresses IGF1 levels more than clomid, and the fact clomid acts negatively on IGF1 has me keen on looking for other options. Will check later the TRT treatments including HCG, as it seems HCG doesn't harm IGF1 levels (i didn't find that out througha quick google search at least).

Great info which is why this board kicks ass.

I started HGH about 2 months ago and my IGF-1 readings are great @ 481. I am actually a little concerned that I will go too high on IGF-1 and considered lowering the HGH doasge to 3 IUs daily. But, I also prefer to increase my test numbers as well. I am researching adding low dosage HCG (250IU 2x week) to the HGH (3-4 IUS daily) and just running those two only. If E2 readings increase, then I introduce an AI.

[jnab]

Great info which is why this board kicks ass.

I started HGH about 2 months ago and my IGF-1 readings are great @ 481. I am actually a little concerned that I will go too high on IGF-1 and considered lowering the HGH doasge to 3 IUs daily. But, I also prefer to increase my test numbers as well. I am researching adding low dosage HCG (250IU 2x week) to the HGH (3-4 IUS daily) and just running those two only. If E2 readings increase, then I introduce an AI.

edit : i thought you were taking only 2iu GH a day, it seems it is more actually. Good numbers anyway.

Wow, 481 at 2iu @45 y o (if i remember correctly) looks good, it doesn't seem that clomid is hurting your levels. Jintropin is available otc in Hong Kong, but about 3 times the price of Supertropin, I might still buy one 200iu kit one of these days and see how it feels. We are on a similar boat , i'm curious to follow your progress, hopefully in a few days i'll be able to come up with blood results and some more research on HCG.

[mattr2]

I'm at 4 IU per day on the jintropin. Stopped Clomid and HCG about 5 weeks ago.

I started US pharma Somatropin this week though to compare numbers. I want to use the somatropin for at least 3 weeks at 4 IUs, then get bloods done to see how the quality compares. I can tell you, this past week I feel very good. Even better than the week before; but I think Im still adjusting the HGH. Could just be a result of the time on upper levels.

This brings up a good topic though. I better not re-introduce HCG or Clomid until I can get my readings done on the Somatropin. I need to eliminate as many moving parts as I can.

[jnab]

Got my bloods back, even without the HCG the E2 are bad.
I've started a separate thread but not sure it willget busier than here, clomid therapy enjoys very little popularity on this board. I haven't felt the nasty side effects you mentioned but the Test went up only a fraction of what you experienced. Wondering here as well what to do next. not keen on adding AI to only reach Test 600, might try to add HCG and an AI, see if it succeeds controlling E2 while boosting test further, give up on boosting test for the moment (not keen on that), or start injecting test while taking an AI

test results are below :

Base levels :

Testo : 401 ng/dl
FSH 165 mIU/dl that's very low even on the local range, which shows 127 to 1926
LH 298 mIU/dl
PRL 10.89 ng/dl
E2 2700 pg/dl

After 6 weeks of clomid @25mg eod :

testo : 604ng/dl
FSH 346 mIU/dl
LH 358 mIU/dl
PRL 12.77 ng/dl range 2.64-13.13
E2 5000 pg/dl range 1100-4400