Bloods after 6 weeks clomid use - high E2

[jnab]

Hi


6 weeks ago after getting the first results below, i started using clomid 25mg EOD to increase test levels

Testo : 401 ng/dl
FSH 165 mIU/dl that's very low even on the local range, which shows 127 to 1926
LH 298 mIU/dl
PRL 10.89 ng/dl
E2 2700 pg/dl

Well total testosterone increased 50% but e2 went up 85%, and are now slightly above range. Prolactin levels are also near the top of the range, but they were slightly high to begin with. New numbers are below :

testo : 604ng/dl
FSH 346 mIU/dl
LH 358 mIU/dl
PRL 12.77 ng/dl range 2.64-13.13
E2 5000 pg/dl range 1100-4400

I'm afraid of high E2, like most I suppose, don't want to deal with mood swings and already had surgery for gyno, would apreciate not to go through that again.
While test and E2 are supposed to go up during Clomid therapy ( as a TRT alternative), ideally the ratio TEST/E2 should go up, which is not the case here, so it doesn't look very good.

Can some of you bros chime up with some related input ? Test levels are not yet where i'd like them, was considering adding HCG to clomid but than sure need to add an AI then. Will probably one day move to test injections but not in a rush to shut off my HPTA, and I'm afraid i will have to deal with possibly bigger e2 problem.

Also what would be the first step after those tests ? Getting AI or stopping clomid use, I don't want to add too many medicines for only modest benefits.

besides i'm taking 4 IU HGh daily and plan on going on with those, got TSH levels well within range, will post them in a seprate thread or later on, a bit in the rush now.

Thanks in advance for all input !


Update on May 12, new blood test results after 5 weeks of HCG@360IU eod , 3 of which without adex, I got a blood test around 6 hours after pinning HCG. The results came as below:


Test 573 ng/dl
E2 42 pg/ml
Prolactin 12.33 ng/ml
FSH 0.16 mIU/ml
Lh 0.21 mIU/ml



update on September 20th, pretty positive except for HDL/LDL levels... Upon returning from holidays got back on HGH and added clomid 25mg eod, HCG 360to 400iu eod as well as exemastane 12.5mg e3d. Just got blood test results, pretty good when it comes to test levels, much better than when using clomid or HCG separately :

Test 863 ng/dl
E2 43 pg/ml
Prolactin 10.05 ng/ml
FSH 1.25 mIU/ml
Lh 1.41 mIU/ml

HDL 30.50mg/dl
LDL 154.05mg/dl

[jnab]

Thinking about the problem, my next step might be to get arimidex and HCG to add to the clomid and check bloods again in 6 weeks, see if ithe mix succeeds upping the Test levels while lowering e2. Not so happy on the prospect of harming IGF1 levels though (i'm on 4iu Gh a day)

Prolactin is quite high as well, i haven't started looking into this issue but would appreciate some feedback as well, seeing some of you bros are quite literate in those hormonal issues.

Also do you have any idea if the sharp jump in E2 signals a similar effect if i ever turn to TRT via test injections ?

Thanks again !

[realdeal]

How old are you? Test levels in the 600s are not too shabby. Also how long did you wait to draw blood after finishing clomid? Estrogen rebounds at least when taking nolva thats why its good to taper off.

[jnab]

44 y o, I haven't stopped taking clomid yet, it was used as an alternative to TRT in hope to increase my test levels from 400, so for an indefinite period, could be years or be stopped tomorrow if those bloods are too worrying. I guess i'll switch one day to TRT with injection and possibly cycle aas without PCT worries by then. So clomid was not part of a PCT, nor of reboosting my HPTA. Afaik if I stop clomid, test and e2 will go back to around the base levels (400 and 27)
Mildly happy about the 600 test, but not about the 57 E2, it doesn't look too good to see a bigger increase of E2 than test, can't say I suffer any noticeable side effects so far, but reading about high e2, it seems to be quite harmful.

In the thread below Mattr2 reached 1200 test using clomid 25mg EOD and HCG around 2000iu a week. that looks good, the side effects not taht good though, I suspect those E2 issues are what makes clomid TRT rather unpopular, especially in BB forum.

https://brotherhoodofpain.com/testosterone-replacement-therapy-trt-/46226-experience-trt-ready-try.html

[realdeal]

That makes sense. I always heard about clomid used as a TRT but then I've also seen posts/studies that showed long term clomid use is bad. Why did you choose the clomid TRT versus traditional?

[jnab]

Many users appear to dislike the way they feel using clomid, nasty side effects besides high E2 are eyesight related afaik, but less likely on a low dose .

Holding off injecting test for TRT/long term cruise to avoid shutting off HPTA, so it's easy to drop the treatment, either to travel or because I don't like it. Read several testimonies of guys on TRT who try to stop and those are not fun to read. Here in China it's fairly easy to get testosterone and most or all PCT and AI medicines are available OTC, but i doubt i can get a TRT prescription from the endo as 400 is way above the local bottom of the range (175 to 781). In the US the low end is 300 and anti aging clinics apparently will put patients with higher readings on TRT anyway.
Still mulling over what to do next, i'm also aching to take aas, and will probably cruise after a cycle if I go that way.

Besides are you on TRT ? Would you take an AI with E2@50 or just let it go ?

[realdeal]

Im not currently on TRT although i want to be. I'm 34 and my test level is 400ish and sex drive is super low when not cycling. I'm having my first kid in 6 months. Once i have another one in a year or so i will be on TRT for sure. I'm been learning/lirking in TRT section because i know my day will come. I know when the time comes i will need to be in the 200s to get my doc to prescribe me Test so i will go at the end of my cycle when i know my test levels are super low. I don't want to go at 0 or he will likely know. Also I will need to plan clomid use and hcg accordingly to show that i'm "shutdown"

Its up to you on Estrogen i would probably take a small amount of AI but if you're not getting sides then maybe let it go. Your numbers are a little different than mine here in the states.

[madhungarian]

How old are you? Test levels in the 600s are not too shabby. Also how long did you wait to draw blood after finishing clomid? Estrogen rebounds at least when taking nolva thats why its good to taper off.

Compared to what? Test levels at 600 has you basically middle of the pack with all men between 18 and 80. 600 on no meds would be ok, but not on meds. That's a level that some crappy Dr. with no trt experience would try to keep you at. On 100mgs a week of trt test I'm in the mid 600s, my crappy Dr. thinks thats ok, so I self medicate at 175mgs a week and get closer to 900.

Jnab, I've personally never done the clomid thing so I won't be any help there. But I would highly recommend you do something about that E number if you've already had gyno problems. Aromasin is an E killer while Arimidex just suppresses. Good luck and keep us posted.

[jnab]

Thanks again RealDeal, and good luck with two kids. that number sounds right indeed, we have 2, if I told my wife going into TRT would make having a third one harder, she'd probably push me to get in !
It seems that when one is cycling AAS it's fairly easy to play with the test numbers when going to the endo, doctors must feel suspicious when a jacked BBer shows up in their office claiming to be low test but than aas users seem to be most at risk of HPTA shutdown.

Still thinking of trying clomid + HCG + arimidex + possibly B6 for prolactin for 6 weeks or so, see how the body reacts.

[jnab]

Compared to what? Test levels at 600 has you basically middle of the pack with all men between 18 and 80. 600 on no meds would be ok, but not on meds. That's a level that some crappy Dr. with no trt experience would try to keep you at. On 100mgs a week of trt test I'm in the mid 600s, my crappy Dr. thinks thats ok, so I self medicate at 175mgs a week and get closer to 900.

Jnab, I've personally never done the clomid thing so I won't be any help there. But I would highly recommend you do something about that E number if you've already had gyno problems. Aromasin is an E killer while Arimidex just suppresses. Good luck and keep us posted.

Thanks Madhungarian, sure 900/1200 sounds better than 600. At 600 i can already feel it's easier to be aroused and it's supposed to be better to put on weight and strength (i put on a lot of mass though at test 400, not that much fat, since getting back to weightlifting, strength has been more frustrating)I 'd sure like to increase those levels. Again mattr2 was able to get his levels from 400 to almost 1200 with Clomid and HCG
Well noted about the aromasin, will check tomorrow how available it is around here ( Arimidex is available otc, aromasin likely is as well)

[madhungarian]

Im not currently on TRT although i want to be. I'm 34 and my test level is 400ish and sex drive is super low when not cycling. I'm having my first kid in 6 months. Once i have another one in a year or so i will be on TRT for sure. I'm been learning/lirking in TRT section because i know my day will come. I know when the time comes i will need to be in the 200s to get my doc to prescribe me Test so i will go at the end of my cycle when i know my test levels are super low. I don't want to go at 0 or he will likely know. Also I will need to plan clomid use and hcg accordingly to show that i'm "shutdown"

Its up to you on Estrogen i would probably take a small amount of AI but if you're not getting sides then maybe let it go. Your numbers are a little different than mine here in the states.

If you're at 400 at 34 years old, you're a perfect candidate for trt. That's not a completely shit number but it's bad for a 34 year old man that I'm assuming is in pretty good shape. I can tell you from personal experience that trt is more than sex drive, although that helps, it's about being better in general. I was a better person after a month in, my wife and kids could tell the difference and so could I. Moodiness was down, my fuse wasn't so short, my mind got clearer and I felt good. Don't wait to do it. If you want another kid then just make sure your Dr. prescribes the right meds to keep your balls working. A lot of men have kids on trt.

[jnab]

Getting E2 too low is also a problem though, I need to check again, but while i've seen both Aromasin and Arimidex used as AI, arimidex comes up more often. Do you guys reckon Aromasin would be better in that case ?

[PJ034]

I would change over to HCG and Proviron. Or just HCG and some Novaldex for couple of weeks to get your E2 down. Usually that will drop your prolactin levels too. Usually elevated estro will elevate your prolactin. HCG has a crazy does range as well. I know guys who take anywhere from 1500 to 5000 wk. HCG will definitely boost your test more than clomid. With a lot less sides.

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[madhungarian]

Thanks Madhungarian, sure 900/1200 sounds better than 600. At 600 i can already feel it's easier to be aroused and it's supposed to be better to put on weight and strength (i put on a lot of mass though at test 400, not that much fat, since getting back to weightlifting, strength has been more frustrating)I 'd sure like to increase those levels. Again mattr2 was able to get his levels from 400 to almost 1200 with Clomid and HCG
Well noted about the aromasin, will check tomorrow how available it is around here ( Arimidex is available otc, aromasin likely is as well)

Almost every domestic sponsor on here offers both Aromasin and Arimidex. I'm currently taking some from a sponsor on here myself. Shoot me a pm and I'll give you some details on my experience. If you made gains with your levels at 400, then you'd be the Hulk with good numbers. You were working 10x harder than a guy with better numbers to make the same gains.

[realdeal]

Thanks again RealDeal, and good luck with two kids. that number sounds right indeed, we have 2, if I told my wife going into TRT would make having a third one harder, she'd probably push me to get in !
It seems that when one is cycling AAS it's fairly easy to play with the test numbers when going to the endo, doctors must feel suspicious when a jacked BBer shows up in their office claiming to be low test but than aas users seem to be most at risk of HPTA shutdown.

Still thinking of trying clomid + HCG + arimidex + possibly B6 for prolactin for 6 weeks or so, see how the body reacts.

Lol i wonder the same thing. Big dude walks in with little to no testosterone in the body. LMAO. Luckily my doctor has already asked if he can prescribe me testosterone so i can stop buying from his words the "blackmarket" He just said he needs my numbers in the 200. I came in one day at 330ng (can't remember the exact number) and 315 was the end of the low range. He was like man i almost could get away with prescribing you but your still in the normal range.

One of the main reasons for me to be on TRT is to be able to take my test with me on vacations and not have to worry about it customs

Let me know either way and what you think of injections vs TRT if you switch over

[PJ034]

Thanks Madhungarian, sure 900/1200 sounds better than 600. At 600 i can already feel it's easier to be aroused and it's supposed to be better to put on weight and strength (i put on a lot of mass though at test 400, not that much fat, since getting back to weightlifting, strength has been more frustrating)I 'd sure like to increase those levels. Again mattr2 was able to get his levels from 400 to almost 1200 with Clomid and HCG
Well noted about the aromasin, will check tomorrow how available it is around here ( Arimidex is available otc, aromasin likely is as well)

Do you're research on AI's Anastrazole is about the only AI that doesn't permanently shut down your bodies production possibly indefinitely. Meaning Aromasin could cause permanent damage.

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[realdeal]

If you're at 400 at 34 years old, you're a perfect candidate for trt. That's not a completely shit number but it's bad for a 34 year old man that I'm assuming is in pretty good shape. I can tell you from personal experience that trt is more than sex drive, although that helps, it's about being better in general. I was a better person after a month in, my wife and kids could tell the difference and so could I. Moodiness was down, my fuse wasn't so short, my mind got clearer and I felt good. Don't wait to do it. If you want another kid then just make sure your Dr. prescribes the right meds to keep your balls working. A lot of men have kids on trt.

Well crap Ive always thought TRT is for everyone who either doesn't want kids or already has them. I wish my doc would prescribe me at 400 but he won't I heard the avg man has 500ng compared to back in the 1940s when the avg man had 700ng so i didn't think 400 was that bad of a number

Edit: i know people go on TRT for other reasons, but when it comes to fertility I was always under the impression that TRT even when taking HCG will still could/keep you from having kids.

[jnab]

Many thanks guys, lot of good info.

PJ what do you reckon about the Nolvadex suppressing IGF1 more than clomid ? I read it's also used for TRT but the results seemed less convincing than clomid's. Already shot an email for HCG to a sponsor. I have nolva at home though, could switch to nolva easily, would definitely appreciate to drop Prolactin and E2 levels.
About proviron it's a mild steroid and rereading about it seems it is only very mildly suppressive and doesn't need necessarily need to be taken along testosterone. But from that to use it for TRT seem like a big step. do you have any experiecne about it ? Can one just stop the treatment and get back to its base levels without experiencing a shutdown ? i'll look this up btw, just a bit overwhelmed right now.

[born]

The thing to remember is clomid is a SERM.
If you are worried about the estrogen sides take an AI but that isn't that high. As long as you are on the clomid your estrogen receptors are holding the modulator and not the estrogen. So, yes your readings will be high but it won't matter because the estrogen cant take effect readily to cause issues like gyno etc..

Coming off you may want to take a couple doses of AI but it wont be necessary more than likely.

[jnab]

Do you're research on AI's Anastrazole is about the only AI that doesn't permanently shut down your bodies production possibly indefinitely. Meaning Aromasin could cause permanent damage.


thanks for the heads up, i wasn't sure why butit appears arimidex is usually prescribed during TRT rather than aromasin

[jnab]

Almost every domestic sponsor on here offers both Aromasin and Arimidex. I'm currently taking some from a sponsor on here myself. Shoot me a pm and I'll give you some details on my experience. If you made gains with your levels at 400, then you'd be the Hulk with good numbers. You were working 10x harder than a guy with better numbers to make the same gains.

Hulk sounds good. A pinkish version maybe - I still look like a small dude compared to the pics of many posters here but yes i'm surprised i put on so much weight and imagine it would be much better with test around 1000.
About the sponsors, I live in China, life is a little complicated and it's surprisingly easier to order some chinese made products from the US than from within China but AI and PCT drugs are largely available OTC.

[PJ034]

Many thanks guys, lot of good info.

PJ what do you reckon about the Nolvadex suppressing IGF1 more than clomid ? I read it's also used for TRT but the results seemed less convincing than clomid's. Already shot an email for HCG to a sponsor. I have nolva at home though, could switch to nolva easily, would definitely appreciate to drop Prolactin and E2 levels.
About proviron it's a mild steroid and rereading about it seems it is only very mildly suppressive and doesn't need necessarily need to be taken along testosterone. But from that to use it for TRT seem like a big step. do you have any experiecne about it ? Can one just stop the treatment and get back to its base levels without experiencing a shutdown ? i'll look this up btw, just a bit overwhelmed right now.You won't be taking Nolva long enough to worry about it. Anastrazole conversion to estro but does nothing to block estro that is already converted from attaching to receptors. Nolva blocks and removes the excess estrogen. Meaning the Nolva will bring down your E2 count and the Anast will stop it from going back up. It will also indirectly bring down your progesterone too. You shouldn't need Nolva longer than a week or two max.

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[PJ034]

thanks for the heads up, i wasn't sure why butit appears arimidex is usually prescribed during TRT rather than aromasinThis is only due to the fact that one has been around longer than the other.

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[jnab]

You won't be taking Nolva long enough to worry about it. Anastrazole conversion to estro but does nothing to block estro that is already converted from attaching to receptors. Nolva blocks and removes the excess estrogen. Meaning the Nolva will bring down your E2 count and the Anast will stop it from going back up. It will also indirectly bring down your progesterone too. You shouldn't need Nolva longer than a week or two max.

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Thanks again PJ, i wonder how long I would have needed to get that precise piece of information looking for info on the net.
i ordered Arimidex and HCG already, will likely try nolvadex for 1 or 2 weeks as you advice before jumping back to clomid. Will see how the next blood test comes up and reconsider than.
Started reading about HCG and proviron btw, noticed some people take that mix year round, will check further.

[PJ034]

Thanks again PJ, i wonder how long I would have needed to get that precise piece of information looking for info on the net.
i ordered Arimidex and HCG already, will likely try nolvadex for 1 or 2 weeks as you advice before jumping back to clomid. Will see how the next blood test comes up and reconsider than.
Started reading about HCG and proviron btw, noticed some people take that mix year round, will check further.Why are you running the clomid? If you run Nolva without running an AI then you're just band aiding the problem. There won't be much use for clomid either if you're running HCG. Most people run clomid to kick start their natural test production after a cycle. HCG also does this but better with less sides, and it's used by non steroid users to boost their natural test as well.

Are you running anything else or did you just come off of a cycle. Refresh my memory of what you're doing, and what your goals are?

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[sumguy]

I would add that when testing for estrogen levels use the Estrogen (Sensitive) test rather than other estrogen tests, as it is more precise.

Adding Proviron lessens SHBG and is an AI to a degree. So it increases free test.

Some guys use small HCG doses daily to increase Test levels. See: Frequency of HCG *MONOTHERAPY* doses (https://www.excelmale.com/showthread.php?13467&p=95437#post95437)

Personally, I would use Aromasin over Arimidex in this situation. Aromasin increases IGF-1 levels somewhat. Info link: Aromatase inhibitors other than arimidex? (https://www.excelmale.com/showthread.php?1287&p=23521#post23521)

[jnab]

Thanks both for your replies.

PJ, running HGh besides clomid, not coming off cycle, just trying to increase test levels without resorting to test injection, similar process as the one described in Sumguy's first link below.

Thinking , rather than HCG monotherapy, to go on HCG + arimidex + clomid, similar protocol as in the thread below

https://brotherhoodofpain.com/testosterone-replacement-therapy-trt-/46226-experience-trt-ready-try.html

If switching from clomid to nolva, say at 10mg a day, for 1 or 2 weeks, can help lower the E2 levels before getting back on Clomid, that sounds worthwhile. Nolvadex is also used in similar protocols in lieu of clomid btw, although some info i read hint it might not work quite as well, besides being harder on IGF1.
Not sure it is worth the hassle, cause if I ever get back on aas (haven't used any for almost 20 years) at 44/45 it is very likely I'll just move to blast and cruise or at least TRT. Anyway, giving alternatives a shot, i'd be happy to get test around 1000 without shutting off natural production.

Sumguy, great link, i already ended on that website when researching but not sure I read that thread.
About the estrogen (sensitive) test, i'm afraid that wouldn't work wher i take the test, the endo so far has been keen on ordering blood tests when I asked but the panels they have on offer are quite limited. Couldn't get free test nor IGF1 either.
Still need to read the link about aromasin and research more about proviron long term use.

[sumguy]

From what I've read Proviron 50mgs or under doesn't effect your HPTA.

[jnab]

Hi

Following input on this thread, I've been on the HCG around 360 UI eod, 10 mg Nolvadex ed and adex 0.25 e3d for 9 days, was planning to run Nolva for 10 days before switching back to clomid, at least until the next bloods, except for an 8 days holidays planned in the meantime. Started feeling very good with it, overall in a good mood, test must have come up quite a bit judging how easy erections came up, easier than on clomid only, although I had noticed improvement with clomid already.
Yet for the last few days sleep has worsen very noticeably. With HGH I had enjoyed a pretty deep sleep but started having troubles falling asleep than staying asleep despite still taking HGH. Feeling very tired after 4/5 days like this, lacking quite a bit of sleep and wasting hours in bed trying to rest.
Any idea where that might come from ? I suspect that has to do with the HCG/Nolva/adex protocol, recently I've also added Coq10 and Celery seeds as supplements, but doubt this is strong enough to disturb sleep that much.

Thanks in advance for all input !

[jnab]

Some update on this experiment. I was curious to check blood after using clomid and HCG together but last 6 weeks have been complicated and decided to drop the clomid, as I really didn't need anything that might influence my mood negatively. Mood was relatively OK on HCG only, also dropped the adex about 3 weeks ago, and the nolvadex much before. No more sleeping issue either;
So after 5 weeks of HCG@360IU eod , 3 of which at least without adex, I got a blood test around 6 hours after pinning HCG. The results came as below:


Test 573 ng/dl
E2 42 pg/ml
Prolactin 12.33 ng/ml
FSH 0.16 mIU/ml
Lh 0.21 mIU/ml

Lh and FSH are very low, but i understood that's to be expected using HCG. Is that right ?
Test has increased but less than I hoped for, it is a little lower than it was on clomid only, and probably quite a bit lower than when i was on HCG and Clomid.
E2 is lower than on clomid only, I still have plenty of adex at home, but might go on not using any.
Prolactin hasn't decreased much, despite taking vit B6 at 400mg/day for about 2 months.

I will probably stick to HCG only (plus HGH which I have used throughout except during 1 week holidays), as from mid June i will be on a 6 or 7 weeks trip where I won't be able to take any medicine.
After might give another try at clomid + HCG or HCG/proviron. Read about the HCG/proviron mix and it looks good, yet my blood pressure has been a little high the last few months (it was 142/87 at the hospital this week) so i hesitate to take proviron.

Interestingly I just started again working out after a 6 weeks break, in the meantime I only lost around 4 pounds and look slightly leaner (or imagine it, didn't take measurements). 4 pounds is what i was supposed to lose just for stopping creatine. Definetely lost quite a bit of strenght, although i haven t tried to push anything heavy yet. Not sure I will go back to a powerlifting routine before summer either.

Anyone has input to share on the above points ? Do you think it is worth increasing the HCG dose, as I have seen others who came up with higher test level increase on HCG only ?
HCG comes from Supertropin btw, adex, clomid and nolva come from chinese drugstores and the 3 different blood test results are on this thread OP.

[jnab]

Update, pretty positive except for HDL/LDL levels... Upon returning from holidays, restarted HGH and switched TRT experiment to clomid 25mg eod, HCG 360to 400iu eod as well as exemastane 12.5mg e3d. Just got blood test results, pretty good when it comes to test levels, much better than when using clomid or HCG separately :

Test 863 ng/dl
E2 43 pg/ml
Prolactin 10.05 ng/ml
FSH 1.25 mIU/ml
Lh 1.41 mIU/ml

HDL 30.50mg/dl
LDL 154.05mg/dl

This looks good as an alternative to TRT to keep higher test levels (baseline was 401), liver numbers are good, BP is decent, blood glucose also when checking at home, but HDL and LDL are in unhealthy territory.

Anyone has feedback on HDL and LDL, shall I do anything about it ? Sports at the moment consist of 3 work outs with free weights a week and trying to fit 3 trips at the pool as well, but i'm 218lbs for 5ft10.5 and a poor swimmer, need 40 to 44mns to swim 1200m at the moment, swimming longer is tough. The more breastroke i use the faster as I end up quickly out of breath doing freestyle. Breastroke isn't getting along very well with my left knee and its meniscus degeneration though i'm afraid. Last year I followed a powerlifting routine, gave up all cardio and BP didn't look great, while strength was still very disappointing, so will try to improve my swimming. Also need to deal with an everlasting slipped disc and recently came out of 4 months struggling with sciatica.

So in conclusion satisfied with the Test, E2 and progesterone results, will stick with this bi therapy, but would like to do something about HDL/LDL.

Thanks in advance for all input !