VETS pass on your knowledge

[ironmaster]

Ok guys I'll give you my take on it after 25 years of using gear. No BS

As a young bloke 20 years old did not know about PCT so would just cycle 6-8 weeks on and 6 weeks off then repeat. If I was planing a show my cycle would run an extra 4 weeks as I would use injectable winny last 4 weeks for condition so it was a 12 week cycle again with 6 weeks off. during my off time I would take nothing and would only drop a little strength and fullness and yes by week 6 felt like I was running on fumes so you guessed it back on cycle. I was smart enough to know to combat E2 and would take nolva or proviron with my cycles and sometimes run it 4 weeks after cycle as needed. I did not use these all the time only when I notice that my nips got sore and run it until they felt good again. Cycled like this for 3 years.

Then I was put onto a DR and my cycles became longer 12-16 weeks then would do full PCT this is how I did it

weeks 1-12 cycle
week 13 hcg 3000iu mon-thurs
week 14 hcg 1500iu mon-thurs
then followed up with 30 days of clomid 50mg/ed

blood work was done 6 weeks later and test levels fell back into normal ranges

may take another 6-8 weeks off before doing it all again

Now in my 40's I no longer can reach full recovery even with a good PCT
so now just stay on low dose test and use HCG 5 shots x 1000iu each shot spaced eod when I feel my balls are getting to small and it fixes it right up. When I cycle I'll add what every compounds I want to at the time keep the test low at trt if going for lean gains or up the test a bit more if wanting more fullness. I'll use AI and SERMS as needed plus any other support compounds like if taking tren would add some caber.


hope you all got something out of that. More helpful info to com

So come on all you VETS use this thread to pass on your knowledge.

[bigpapapumpaf]

I'm missing what you want to do here. If you are on TRT why are you stopping to see if you can come back up to normal?

HCG will just make your ball sack bigger. Its not going to get your system restarted again. At your age, that might take a long time, if it happens at all. You would need to also start clomid and or nolvadex for any shot at a restart. Do some research on Triptorelin, it might have the ability to give you a fresh start but beware too much will have the opposite effect.

Your AI of choice might also have a negative effect on this. I've been preaching aromasin for years because it works best for me. Most people use armidex or letrozole but I find that they are too harsh and the rebound does not help with what you're trying to do.

I'm 50. I'm on dr prescribed TRT at 100 mg EOW. He got an attitude with me 6 months ago and told me to stop, so I did. Blood work after 90 days came back with my test below 200. Needless to say he will never pull me off again and I accept the fact that I will never be able to have natural test production again. I will blast here and there but never stop my TRT. I have no need for hcg but will on occasion run clomid for show.

BPP

[bigt87]

Rather than playing a hormonal rollercoaster with my body and mind, I just choose to stay on a low dose of test year round while doing a hard blast a few times a year. I feel better doing it this way and I honestly believe it's healthier. If I wanted more kids I would take a different approach and do the whole pct thing.

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[sumguy]

I think waiting 13-14 weeks into a cycle before attempting to get your HPTA working again with HCG is a mistake. Or it just prolongs your recovery time.

Unfortunately, it appears your lack of PCT knowledge during your younger years put you in the predicament you are now in.

Add to that using only Clomid during PCT and not also Nolvadex could be another reason why your earlier PCT experiences were not the best?

Very important in the long term to have a good PCT plan in place before attempting to start any cycle. Long term health and wellness is more important than gaining a few pounds of quick muscle w/o a proper PCT plan in place.

[Zoneboss]

6 to 8 weeks on then 6 weeks off dude that would be punishment with no pct your body would just be starting to rebound at 6 week then back on, it be 6 weeks of hell I stay on a tear blast and cruise, and if your in your forties your body ain't gonna recover like it would for a twenty year old.

[ironmaster]

I think you guys are missing the point.

The first half of the post was how I evolved with my cycles over time. Now that I am 40 I find PCT no longer gets me back to a good range so on trt 150mg/wk keeps me at the high end of normal.
Yes still like to run some hcg now and again as I do not like the idea of having raisins for nuts.

[ironmaster]

All I have come to learn over the past 20 plus years of using gear is that everyone seems to be an expert. What I say is worth more then some guy just reading a book or what they read on the internet. You learn buy doing and doing over a long time and the person how has done that will have more insight then a know it all that has just read alot but put nothing into practice.

I must say somethings I have done over the years back fired but some of the methods I used worked and worked well.
here is an example

when I was 23 I did a show doing a 8 week cycle on winny inject t3 and a bit of clen and was good enough to place second in a real tough line up that year. now if you read what they say on the internet and you will hear Bro you needed to run some test with that Well news flash no test used and got into great shape loooking full and hard. At the time I just guessed tests keeps you bloated and as I was young I was of the opinion that as a young man my test was already high so a good dose of winny is all I needed mind you I did fun 25mg of provrion with the cycle so maybe that was enough androgen in that to make the cycle great. Also from my records I saw I used no pct just some tribulus and recoverd fine .

And yes I have record every cycle of have done over the years some 50 cycles some good some bad but the main thing is I got to learn what works for me not some generic advice and I must say I read every book about the subject and used my own brain to apply the information to my body.

[stephen220]

Ironmaster is right you can read and read everything you want but the best way to learn about compounds and how you react to them is through self experimentation. Everyone reacts a little different just have to learn yourself and you learn to fine tune it to your needs. Now I'm not saying doing stupid things, what you learn here and reading should only be a base to start at then fine tune for your needs. We all start somewhere the main thing is that we improve and learn from what we do and pass on our knowledge to help guide others that may be just starting out.

[ironmaster]

Ironmaster is right you can read and read everything you want but the best way to learn about compounds and how you react to them is through self experimentation. Everyone reacts a little different just have to learn yourself and you learn to fine tune it to your needs. Now I'm not saying doing stupid things, what you learn here and reading should only be a base to start at then fine tune for your needs. We all start somewhere the main thing is that we improve and learn from what we do and pass on our knowledge to help guide others that may be just starting out.
Thanks for the support brother well said at least you can see what I am trying to get at.

[ironmaster]

If you are an old hat at this gear thing post your ideas here and let us all learn.

Here is another cycle I have had good results with and have done it on many occasions.

stage 1
Androgen load
week 1-3
750mg test
400mg EQ
30mg dbol
gets levels up high real quick and let E2 raise to get gains kick started

stage 2
Anabolic load
week 4-6
500mg test
600mg EQ
Arimidex 0.5mg eod
lower test drop oral up anabolic to enhance muscle gain use AI to down ramp E2 from previous load

stage 3
Anabolic hold
week 7-10
250mg test
600mg EQ
Arimidex 0.5mg mon - thurs
Low dose of test for support and lower bloat and just make the EQ the main driver now

stage 3
week 11-14
Anabolic drive/Andro clearance
50mg winny ed
50mg proviron ed
To clean up gains and prepare body for pct

PCT as needed sometime hcg maybe needed along with novla clomid but again length of pct will depend on how you feel.

[Scott84067r]

I appreciate the dispersion of knowledge.

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[ironmaster]

I appreciate the dispersion of knowledge.

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thanks

[Popeye*]

Thanks iron. Regardless of opinions, I appreciate you sharing some hard ran knowledge my man!


Popeye

[DD79]

I picked up what you were putting down Ironmaster. This has potential to be a valuable thread!!

I hope some other vets will throw in some good stuff too.


~-Respect, DD79-~

[Enigma]

I (over) chimed in on the Dec/Dbol thread in AS. I started at 23, was 145 pounds and called a “fat skinny motherfucker” by my shipmates. I went up to around 170 lbs very fast. I did the old “taper up/taper down” method popular in the 80s. Never once did a PCT. I was a horny young sailor some my PCT was pussy. Never had an issue. Also never did a blood test.
Over the years I have gone through many phases and some included gear and bodybuilding, although I never stopped training.
About 3 years ago I started to get back into it as a lifestyle and was living in a country where gear is not controlled. I also started perusing the forums and while I was impressed with the proliferation of new information and products, I was aghast at the volume of gear guys use. Incredible doses by guys who have no intention of ever stepping on the dais.

It seemed to me that “back in the day” we sat around the gym talking about foods, supplements, our pro inspirations and a little bit of gear talk. We didn’t have the vast array of compounds available now, although ALL of our gear, even if counterfeit, was legit. (I was in San Diego then). When some pro’s would come into town they would sleep on friend’s couches and they would share cycles that they knew other pro’s up in LA were doing. Some of these amounts were equal to what I see average Joes on forums using.
Just like not trying to help String Bean Jimmy kettle bell reverse lift cross cable upsydaisy clean jerk dead (or whatever that exercise is supposed to be), I don’t bother telling anyone about gear or supplementation anymore. My wife keeps telling me I can’t save the world. It sucks because not only CAN I help people, I enjoy doing so. I just seem to have been relegated to the forums in my attempt to share my 30+ years of experience in the gym, with gear and nutrition.

I have found that people will cling to every word spoken by a YouTube or Instagram “sensation” yet standing right next to you in the gym, looking at your physique, seeing you train and knowing you are devoted to the lifestyle, the just brush off ANYTHING and EVERYTHING you have to say.
My business partner is a great example. Only two years ago he took Rich Piana’s comments about blends and “only 200mg fits into a ml” as gospel. He couldn’t be persuaded otherwise. So I took him into the lab, put 200mg Test e, 200mg Deca and 50mg of Test prop into a single ml. He watched it happen and still was skeptical. After about six month he gave it a go. That stuff is now a favorite of his and we’ve added it to our regular batches. He’s even asked me to bump the prop to 100mg. Lol!

Agree or disagree, I think the contributions of everyone are valuable, especially vets of these subjects. I speak only the truth and about my personal experiences or those I KNOW to be factual, albeit perhaps anecdotal.
I’m mature enough to sift through the rhetoric and glean useful information.

Unfortunately this is the faceless internet, so people feel free to argue in non-productive ways, castigate posts based on other posts rather than actual personal knowledge and generally become douchy trolls.
BOP seems to be a bit immune to this so far. I’m hoping it stays this way. I will continue to contribute as long as it does.

[Primemuscle]

Thanks Iron and everyone who actually shared their real life experiences for insight. I couldn’t agree more that it’s the stuff we’ve experimented with and tried on our bodies that will be the best knowledge we can gain. Granted dosages or compounds might be different based off how we all respond, there is still a basic outline on what can be done. And there’s definitely limits we can push all the while being as health conscious as possible.

One thing I’ve learned is: there’s a lot of bro science and fear mongering when it comes to AAS use. There’s all the unwarranted claims that are almost outlandish to me with no real credentials. Or you have uneducated people running gear recklessly then saying how it dangerous because they have no clue how to properly use gear and take care of their bodies. That’s like cleaning a loaded gun, shooting yourself in the face, surviving then saying guns are dangerous and will kill you. Yes no shit when you use things that need to be handled with respect negligently, then there will be costly repercussions.

So with that being said I’d like to share the concept of extended cycles getting periodic blood work to make sure things are in tact. I’ve ran 32+ week cycles 2-3 times with no issues. Started with 2-3 compounds for a lean bulk (test, npp and/or EQ), then switched to the big 3 to cut (test, tren, mast), then changed it up again to utilize the rebound phase and gain new muscle tissue since my body is in it most responsive since state after several months of hard cutting (test, npp). All the while using orals 4-6 weeks on, then taking 6 weeks off and repeating. The key to this is taking ancillary supplements religiously (AI’s, Serm’s, caber, otc supps, etc). So I’ll take my AI 3-4x weekly when bulking, and when I’m cutting I’ll up it to help dry out more. I aromatize easily so I have to take AI more frequently then some might. However I do not get gyno or prolactin issues so aromatization is the only thing I have to watch closely. After I switch from npp to tren and have been on tren for 5-6 weeks I throw caber in just to be safe (0.5mg 2x week). And I’ll take multi vitamin, NAC, ALA, taurine, fish oils, turmeric, olive leaf extract, vitamin k2, magnesium, probiotics, etc 2-3x daily. I have gotten blood work back and only have slightly elevated liver/kidney levels (10-15 points higher) with everything else in range.

My point is there aren’t many clinical studies, and the ones that are usually run extremely high amounts of gear which of course can be toxic or increase the chance of negative sides. If you use moderate doses, monitor your blood work, stay on a clean diet year round, train consistently and do cardio regularly to keep cardiovascular system healthy; then there really shouldn’t be too much issues with running gear for extended periods. I think the biggest key is changing compounds, being smart with dosages and taking ancillaries several times daily or daily depending on what it is.

Just my 2 cents from experience on something I don’t feel is talked about often. And again my biggest concern is trying to be as healthy as possible. So getting blood work, donating blood, taking daily supplants and using gear in moderate doses while being on a strict healthy diet will give you the best environment to reap mainly positive effects from AAS use.

And use I blast and cruise.. typically I’ll cruise on low dose test for 8-10 weeks, then go to a test only cycle at 500mg for another 6 weeks or so, then I’ll start adding compounds and getting back to the fun.. to this day, after running advanced cycles with hgh, insulin, clen, t3 & t4, orals, several compounds; I must say test is king for a reason. Nothing like some properly dosed test at 600-750mg. Always gets me feeling like it’s my first cycle all over again!

Much love y’all

35825


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[ironmaster]

One other method I have done is that I switch to fast acting compounds towards the end of a cycle I would do this if heading into a PCT

Example
10 week cycle
test e
Deca

Then switch to test p with say oral winny for 4 weeks along with some hcg to help kick start the balls

reason is that last 4 weeks I found the fast compound let you harden up while you drop the water from the long esters and you can dive right into PCT when finished as the levels of hormone in your blood should be cleared of the long compounds some times I would wait an extra week but the idea is you can get into PCT without the lag time.

[ironmaster]

Some great content on this thread please feel free to share more ideas on what has worked for you!

[ironmaster]

This was a pic of my show back in 2006

I ran the cycle for 30 weeks out from the show after being 14 months off all gear. My starting point was 90kg @ 25% bf after about 10 weeks in was 95kg @ 15% with good diet and training used 250mg sus wk with 200mg of deca all prescribed from my doctor. Added some anadrol mid way and here is my last 12 weeks into the comp

Week 1-8
500mg sus wk
50mg winny ed
40mg var ed

last 4 weeks
100mg winny ed
50mg proviron ed

result 85kg @ sub 6% bf38049