Training on Juice; how it changes the game.

[luger77]

Let's take this routine list for example:
http://www.clutchfitness.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=37

Which of these programs would you choose if you knew you were going to have maximum recovery potential and maximum gain potential?
How would you alter it to make use of the AAS, and how do you currently train to make use of your cycles?

I can't find one damn good thread on training on steroids versus training naturally.

[Bigswole]

In general, I tend to go with higher weight, higher volume sets, more sets, and every set to failure when on cycle. Overtraining is difficult if not impossible when on a cycle and eating properly. When off cycle, I don't do things like negatives, forced reps, running the rack, etc because of overtraining.

[TheGreatWhiteTruth]

In general, I tend to go with higher weight, higher volume sets, more sets, and every set to failure when on cycle. Overtraining is difficult if not impossible when on a cycle and eating properly. When off cycle, I don't do things like negatives, forced reps, running the rack, etc because of overtraining.

I hope this thread takes off. There's not a whole lot of solid evidence or studies about this subject out in the wild... at least, I have yet to see one.

I tend to adapt Big's mindset. During a cycle I will train 2-3 days on and one day off in between. Off-cycle I train strictly EOD. I've always been under the impression that gear can take the 72 hours that it takes a muscle to fully recover and shorten it to 24 or less based on diet.

[bhcolex50x]

on cycle i lift:

day 1: Legs, calfs, bi's, forearms
day 2: chest, tri's
day 3: back, bi's, forearms
day 4: shoulders, tri's
day 5: off for lifting, cardio and abs only
repeat 5day cycle.

i generally cut more than i bulk as this is my goal but as greatwhite said on cycle your turn around time for your muscle recovery is very short.

i tried this routine off cycle... failed miserably, but on cycle i conquer it like a beast! 1hr-1.5 lifting with 20-30min of cardio and abs following it on cycle.

Just my 2 cents bro's feel free to comment in interested in your thoughts

[TheGreatWhiteTruth]

i tried this routine off cycle... failed miserably, but on cycle i conquer it like a beast! 1hr-1.5 lifting with 20-30min of cardio and abs following it on cycle.

Just my 2 cents bro's feel free to comment in interested in your thoughts

I am a huge advocate of getting in and out of the gym within 45 minutes to an hour, but I think an exception can be made with gear. There would still be a cortisol response from your body undoubtedly, but I highly doubt that cortisol would have much effect on the constant anabolism that is being procured with gear in your system. So basically, my theory is that while on cycle, cortisol may have little to no effect; ie gear has an cortisol-inhibitory effect.

I wish I could find some studies and abstracts to reinforce my ideas...

[mth496]

Dame i would love to see some studies on this. To me if you are on cycle, you should be pushing your self harder. 45minutes in and out is good for being natural. But i like to add in another 25minutes to a half hour 2 extra sets each body part. On tren i feel like my body repairs over night, but i always give each body part some respect and let it rest 2 to 3 days on gear before hitting it again.

[bhcolex50x]

wish more guys would post on this sub forum! lol

[TheGreatWhiteTruth]

Yeah bro, I've been trying to find articles that aren't based on bro science. Med pub doesn't seem to have any studies either.

[bhcolex50x]

i mean even personal experience stories would be better than nothing haha tho true science is always best i mean science is what got us here haha

[TheGreatWhiteTruth]

Found one!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22273746


The anabolic androgenic steroid fluoxymesterone inhibits 11β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase 2-dependent glucocorticoid inactivation.
Fürstenberger C (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22273746), Vuorinen A (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=%22Vuorinen%20A%22%5BAuthor%5D), Da Cunha T (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=%22Da%20Cunha%20T%22%5BAuthor%5D), Kratschmar DV (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=%22Kratschmar%20DV%22%5BAuthor%5D), Saugy M (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=%22Saugy%20M%22%5BAuthor%5D), Schuster D (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=%22Schuster%20D%22%5BAuthor%5D), Odermatt A (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=%22Odermatt%20A%22%5BAuthor%5D).
SourceSwiss Center for Applied Human Toxicology and Division of Molecular and Systems Toxicology, Department of Pharmaceutical Sciences, University of Basel, Klingelbergstrasse 50, 4056 Basel, Switzerland.

AbstractAnabolic androgenic steroids (AAS) are testosterone derivatives used either clinically, in elite sports, or for body shaping with the goal to increase muscle size and strength. Clinically developed compounds and non-clinically tested designer steroids often marketed as food supplements are widely used. Despite of considerable evidence for various adverse effects of AAS use, the underlying molecular mechanisms are insufficiently understood. Here, we investigated whether some AAS, as a result of a lack of target selectivity, might inhibit 11β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase 2 (11β-HSD2)-dependent inactivation of glucocorticoids. Using recombinant human 11β-HSD2 we observed inhibitory effects for several AAS. Whereas oxymetholone, oxymesterone, danazol and testosterone showed medium inhibitory potential, fluoxymesterone was a potent inhibitor of human 11β-HSD2 (IC(50) of 60-100 nM in cell lysates; IC(50) of 160 nM in intact SW-620 and 530 nM in MCF-7 cells). Measurements with rat kidney microsomes and lysates of cells expressing recombinant mouse 11β-HSD2 revealed much weaker inhibition by the AAS tested, indicating that the adverse effects of AAS-dependent 11β-HSD2 inhibition cannot be investigated in rats and mice. Furthermore, we provide evidence that fluoxymesterone is metabolized to 11-oxofluoxymesterone by human 11β-HSD2. Structural modeling revealed similar binding modes for fluoxymesterone and cortisol, supporting a competitive mode of inhibition of 11β-HSD2-dependent cortisol oxidation by this AAS. No direct modulation of mineralocorticoid receptor (MR) function was observed. Thus, 11β-HSD2 inhibition by fluoxymesterone may cause cortisol-induced MR activation, thereby leading to electrolyte disturbances and contributing to the development of hypertension and cardiovascular disease.




So what I'm getting from this is that AAS do in fact inhibit glucocorticoids but only to an extent. And apparently some are better at it than others. Maybe this might explain some of the unknown mechanisms by which some steroids seem to dry a user out or lean them out... O.o

This is still anecdotal. There is no information about training, just that AAS somewhat inhibits cortisol.

[pushiron]

Bodybuilding on juice allows me to recover quick and eat more.

[bhcolex50x]

i too took that from the article, while i will admit a lot of the terminology is over my head, thats what it sounded like to me as well, i wish we could find an article comparing different steroids on what percentage it inhibits this or what time period it adds b4 it takes place. and like you said still nothing about the training but i still like hearing that it can inhibit it some, every little bit helps

[mikeyg51]

I like the Hypertrophy Specific Training because AAS causes hypertrophy, or the enlarging of muscle cells (GH causes hyperplasia, or the growing of new muscle cells)..Now, I have never actually done this type of workout before, but seeing the research behind it makes me want to give it a shot. I was always against training all muscle groups in one day; however, reading that thread opened my eyes a lil! If I am on cycle, and depending on which type of gear I am on by the way, I can really train hard..Although I get sore still, it is not as severe nor as long...I attribute this to enhanced recovery that AAS promotes. However, I still don't train for 1.5-2 hours because I start fucking around too much at that point lol...

[TheGreatWhiteTruth]

I like the Hypertrophy Specific Training because AAS causes hypertrophy, or the enlarging of muscle cells (GH causes hyperplasia, or the growing of new muscle cells)..Now, I have never actually done this type of workout before, but seeing the research behind it makes me want to give it a shot. I was always against training all muscle groups in one day; however, reading that thread opened my eyes a lil! If I am on cycle, and depending on which type of gear I am on by the way, I can really train hard..Although I get sore still, it is not as severe nor as long...I attribute this to enhanced recovery that AAS promotes. However, I still don't train for 1.5-2 hours because I start fucking around too much at that point lol...

Yeah I hear ya. My ADD kicks in after and hour. lol.

I mean look at guys like, arnold, mentzer, katz, columbo, and all of the dinosaurs of that era... It was nothing for them to training a 6 hour split in one day PER day, and sometimes the only gear they were running was dbol. Granted, these guys weren't nearly the size of guys today mind you. So there is definitely something to this.

[TheGreatWhiteTruth]

Maybe some of the other Vets can chime in with their personal experiences. Where you at V? Stone? P-money? FS? Smalls?

[mth496]

Always great to keep learning and learning. One thing i enjoy about this forum, is post like this.

[reporich]

Great info!

[TheGreatWhiteTruth]

This is still anecdotal. There is no information about training, just that AAS somewhat inhibits cortisol.

So I was just re-reading this thread and I read this statement and it made me think... If AAS only SOMEWHAT inhibits cortisol, it would still be important to be cautious of over training. I think training 1-1.5 hours on gear everyday would be as far as you would want to go. Remember, AAS has a better effect on decreasing recovery time than they do inhibiting cortisol. So if you think about it, it would make sense that your cortisol spikes would still activate 45 minutes into your workout and work their way up. They just wouldn't be as potent... But that crap is STILL floating around in your bloodstream attempting to wreak havoc on your body.

[mikeyg51]

So I was just re-reading this thread and I read this statement and it made me think... If AAS only SOMEWHAT inhibits cortisol, it would still be important to be cautious of over training. I think training 1-1.5 hours on gear everyday would be as far as you would want to go. Remember, AAS has a better effect on decreasing recovery time than they do inhibiting cortisol. So if you think about it, it would make sense that your cortisol spikes would still activate 45 minutes into your workout and work their way up. They just wouldn't be as potent... But that crap is STILL floating around in your bloodstream attempting to wreak havoc on your body.

Great post here, because all too often we (and I definitely have been known to do this!) overtrain on AAS because we feel that we can..however, keeping the gym-time down to maybe an hour-and-a-half tops would be helpful I think..love reading this thread, great shit!