Help from the Bros!!!

[crush]

Hey Bros; I'm taking F.I.S.T advice on a cut stack, and its my first go. If I take 50-75 mg of test-prop ED for 8wks. Do I need clomid and nolva for my pct. And pins dont bother me, so I'm not crazy. LOL

[halfApint]

I prefer torem, but yes you need PCT

[ODB]

always PCT, unless ur on HRT (not a fan of clomid - serious mood swings) = also get blood work done - B4, during and 2 weeks after PCT.

[STEROID]

Hey Bros; I'm taking F.I.S.T advice on a cut stack, and its my first go. If I take 50-75 mg of test-prop ED for 8wks. Do I need clomid and nolva for my pct. And pins dont bother me, so I'm not crazy. LOL

Yes,any cycle you should run a proper pct.I always go with both Nolva and Clomid and have never had any issues with recovery.

Make sure to keep your diet clean and your training tight,especially with plenty of cardio.If cutting up is your main goal,than these 2 will be the main determining factor in your results.I would also rec blood work as ODB suggests.Best way to know how your body is reacting to the cycle and make and needed changes BEFORE and issues should occur.

Good luck with it brother.Post up your results as your cycle runs throughout.

[Patriot1405]

^^^excellent advice!! I used to get serious mood swings from clomid, but always seemed better to take it than not. Used to use clomid/nolvadex for pct, now on TRT!!!

[crush]

Awesome thanks bros. Sounds like just takin TRT would be better than clomid and Nolva. Im mean enough so I could due wiithout the mood swings....Lol...

[Camzilla]

Not hijack your post but...

Patriot- what are you taking for TRT? My doc has me doing 100mg test E every week.

[Patriot1405]

My doc has me on 200mgs test cyp every week.

[Camzilla]

This is my first week and he said he wanted 200 every two weeks but I figgered 100/wk is prolly better. After the initial 12 weeks are up I'm prolly gonna ask for an increase. Do you think the cyp is a better option than the enan?

[REDRUM]

This is my first week and he said he wanted 200 every two weeks but I figgered 100/wk is prolly better. After the initial 12 weeks are up I'm prolly gonna ask for an increase. Do you think the cyp is a better option than the enan?

Cam is your doc an Endo, or Internal MD? Problem everyone faces with docs is that they simply dont get that the blood levels simply dont last that long(2 weeks). You are wise enough to know that splitting the dose is better than all at once. If your doc is an endo, dump him and get buddy buddy with your GP. The endo will fight you to the death regarding dosage and whats best for you, unless hes 30yrs old, hes spitting out science from the 60's or 70's, these guys dont take refresher courses, some do, majority dont as they know what they know and thats that. With your GP you have a better chance of talking to him like a normal human being, and just explaining that you simply feel better using a higher dose, on a weekly and not bi weekly basis. Its what I did, the endo I was seeing wanted me to first start going in for sperm count, and then he kept pushing for me to cryonically store a sample, so I could have kids when I was say 50 if I chose to, and he was pushing the idea to a point like he had stock in the damn company. Thats when I went to my GP showed him all the blood work, and while of course he understands everything the number that helped me out, was my free test number. When your supposed to be in the 400ng/dl range, and Im just barely cracking 100 out of a scale of 200-800, he got it. And from the get go we started with 200mg a week, I was on that dose for 4 yrs, than we bumped it to 300mg a week, now however he writes the script, I get 5 refills with it, and I get a 10ml every month. Techincally, its not supposed to be done, but then again GH isnt supposed to be used in anti aging. So good for me. Point of all this is to feel out ur doc, then your second month into your HRT, tell him that the dose you prescribed bi weekly, wasnt helping. You did a ton of research, and found that weekly injections may do more to keep your blood levels stable, and that you would like to increase the dose as you are still feeling sluggish, and ur libido is there but isnt as it should be. Dont get to deep into the mood aspect of things, make it more about your strength, and swagger otherwise hes going to suggest a shrink if he believes depression is the factor in this, and then everything just backfired.
We wouldnt have these problems if the FDA would have approved Neebido. Its a 4ml vial, that contains 1000mg of test undeconate. Undeconate is the longest ester of the gang, and has a half life of 21 days, so you would basically have active test in ur system for up 6 weeks. And it takes its sweet time releasing into the blood stream, you dont have to worry about getting a massive dose at one shot, and then everything spiking and then dropping. Its whats being used in basically every other country on this planet now for HRT, but the FDA feared potential abuse with the product...yea I know wtf?! Potential abuse with a drug that takes 2 weeks at least to fully kick in, more like lobbyists for major pharma companies coming in to block an outsider from playing nice with the rest of the gang

[Camzilla]

My doc is an FP. He is pretty clueless on the entire affair. Good dude, we've deployed together twice in the past few years and I practice under his license, plus we've emptied a good many bottles of bourbon together at the poker table, so I have a very good relationship with him. He's about half interested in the whole affair. He figures that since I practice medicine on my own at sea for my crew, then I should be able to sort through this and let him know what I need done. Fair enough I suppose. Only problem is that I have to be able to support my plan with studies that demonstrate that it is standard of care. Totally understandable, except there is alot of bullshit out there that is way to conservative. Plenty of studies that focus on getting the patient barely into the reference ranges, this is half-ass medicine in my opinion. So I try and learn what the successful guys here are doing and then find recent studies which support those courses of therapy. Frankly, I realize I'm in a very good position as I'm driving the bus on my own care, I'm plenty thankful for that. I'm just not not really finding much in the way of good therapy, most is overly conservative. And I want to sort through this as soon as possible as I hope to head back out this summer. In which case I lose my "call your own shot" md, and get a different doc, perhaps a more conservative one. If I can just say its an established treatment plan they will continue it. But if I'm still titrating dosage For effect, it may scare them off. I have privileges to write for CIII's and do frequently, just can't write them for myself, so I need the little bookworms in this situation. I'm gonna stick with the weekly and my guy will be good with it, just need to figure out a dose level, and whether to continue with E, or is there a compelling reason to switch to C. I can't begin to tell you how helpful you guys here have been with this process. I'm doing this completely backwards from a clinical perspective, but it's a he'll of alot easier than reinventing the wheel. BOP is awesome. Between great members and awesome sponsors, there is loads of good gouge here. I'm awful thankful to have found this place.

[Patriot1405]

Redrum is absolutely correct in that older GP's do not take refresher courses. I went to my doctor complaining of low libido, no energy and occasional ed. I asked him to check my test levels because I thought my levels were low. My levels came back at 243. He said I could go on test and prescribed androgel. Which I new he would do. I spoke to him and told him that I would rather have an injectable instead of transdermal. He debated with me for about a half an hour. But I could see he was impressed with my knowledge. I told him I was apprehensive about using the gel and possibly transferring it to my wife and kids by contact, and also about sweating it off during the day, because Im in construction and work outside. He said he would consider the injectable but that he would administer it and that it would be 1 shot every two weeks. I told him that blood levels would be unstable and that I would be crashing by end of second week. I could see that he was uncertain of what he was saying, and more interested to hear what I had to say. We agreed to disagree, I left that day with my androgel script in hand, searching for another doctor. I eventually found a young doctor who was educated on the subject and prescribed test cypionate for me at 200mgs a week and allowed me to self administer. I go back every ten weeks for blood work and script renewal. If I'm not mistaken cypionate is what's given here in the states. I believe enanthate is more in europe. Though I could be wrong. About 2 months later my family GP who is 64, calls me and tells me that he went to a seminar on testosterone, and is now himself on testosterone and feels incredible. He wanted to call me to find out how I was doing and to thank me for enlightening him! Even spoke to me about middle of the night erections he was having!! I hung up and laughed for about an hour!

[Camzilla]

I talked to my doc this AM and said he's cool with the weekly's. After this initial 12weeks I'm gonna press for a dose increase.
It's good we're having this discussion, hopefully folks who are also going through this can learn from our experiences. Alot of guys are embarrassed to talk about it openly.

[crush]

I think I need a new Doc. Told mine Id like my Test levels checked and he said if Im not having erection problems than theres no sense in it. Im 40 years old..........

[Camzilla]

My advice is to read about hypogonadism, that is the clinical diagnosis for low T. There are some great articles out there that will educate you so you are armed with knowledge when you visit your doc. Be prepared for the ADAM quiz as well. IJM published an article titled "Clinical management of hypogonadism in the primary care setting". It's the perfect learning/teaching tool for both patients and doctors alike. It's what my doc and I are using as the basis for my treatment. And above all, keep asking questions on anything you don't know. Alot of really smart dudes here, I've went from desperate one month to pinning legal test E the next from the education I have learned here and read in med journals. As John Holmes once said "It's all in the delivery" (couldn't help not using that one).

[mth496]

Doctors from where i am are a pain in the ball with TRT. They want you to make visits all the time, and wont let you get presribed it unless its androgel.

[Redis]

There's a "low T center" that's opened up here. I haven't been, but the website says you come, get t levels checked, and within 30 mins you find out your levels. If you're below 350, you get an injection and have to return every 7-10 days for a booster. Sounds like a pain because I'd rather do the injection myself, but interesting nonetheless.

[mikeyg51]

Whoa Whoa Whoa...if you are not having erectile dysfunction, you don't need hrt?!?!?! Wtf brother?! That doctor concerns me lol...I do NOT want it to get to that point, and you can still get and maintain hardons and have concerningly low testosterone! Yeah, Crush, maybe try to find a new doc cuz you don't want to play with that one! And I love nolvadex and HCG for my pct...
I laughed so hard Patriot reading your post about ur doc calling you! hahaha, good shit!

[REDRUM]

My doc is an FP. He is pretty clueless on the entire affair. Good dude, we've deployed together twice in the past few years and I practice under his license, plus we've emptied a good many bottles of bourbon together at the poker table, so I have a very good relationship with him. He's about half interested in the whole affair. He figures that since I practice medicine on my own at sea for my crew, then I should be able to sort through this and let him know what I need done. Fair enough I suppose. Only problem is that I have to be able to support my plan with studies that demonstrate that it is standard of care. Totally understandable, except there is alot of bullshit out there that is way to conservative. Plenty of studies that focus on getting the patient barely into the reference ranges, this is half-ass medicine in my opinion. So I try and learn what the successful guys here are doing and then find recent studies which support those courses of therapy. Frankly, I realize I'm in a very good position as I'm driving the bus on my own care, I'm plenty thankful for that. I'm just not not really finding much in the way of good therapy, most is overly conservative. And I want to sort through this as soon as possible as I hope to head back out this summer. In which case I lose my "call your own shot" md, and get a different doc, perhaps a more conservative one. If I can just say its an established treatment plan they will continue it. But if I'm still titrating dosage For effect, it may scare them off. I have privileges to write for CIII's and do frequently, just can't write them for myself, so I need the little bookworms in this situation. I'm gonna stick with the weekly and my guy will be good with it, just need to figure out a dose level, and whether to continue with E, or is there a compelling reason to switch to C. I can't begin to tell you how helpful you guys here have been with this process. I'm doing this completely backwards from a clinical perspective, but it's a he'll of alot easier than reinventing the wheel. BOP is awesome. Between great members and awesome sponsors, there is loads of good gouge here. I'm awful thankful to have found this place.

Sounds like you are doing just fine with everything so far, and I must say thank you for serving this country. Majority of my family are vets, and damn proud of them for it. As time goes on and you keep absorbing everything we are throwing at you, you will be more than confident when you begin to speak on the matters of HRT with your doctor, or the next one. And as far as enanthate and cypionate go, only a molecule or two separates them, enanthate is 8-9 days, cypionate is 7-8 days of half life. Most docs prescribe cyp simply because it comes in 10ml vials, where majority of enanthate is 5mls. I havent seen a 10ml of American enanthate since Steris was in business some 20 yrs ago, but there might be a generic brand by the label of Paddock that supplies a 10ml of E. Again cam you are doing fine, keep us posted bro.

And Patriot, that post about ur doc I damn near hit the floor brotha. That is some truly funny shit, thank you for posting that as I needed the laugh.

[Patriot1405]

I laughed so hard Patriot reading your post about ur doc calling you! hahaha, good shit!


And Patriot, that post about ur doc I damn near hit the floor brotha. That is some truly funny shit, thank you for posting that as I needed the laugh.

^^^lmao, an honest to God true story!!
Thinking about it still makes me smile!!

[Rmewrench]

Cam, are you not using blood work to see where t levels are at?? Why not let the proof be shown in the pudding so to speak?? If 100mg a week isnt enough it will refelct. And then if needed bump the dose. Or are you trying to skirt the blood test to get your dose to put you in the higher end of normal range?? It would be very hard for anyone to argue with black and white results on test levels from a blood test.


My advice is to read about hypogonadism, that is the clinical diagnosis for low T. There are some great articles out there that will educate you so you are armed with knowledge when you visit your doc. Be prepared for the ADAM quiz as well. IJM published an article titled "Clinical management of hypogonadism in the primary care setting". It's the perfect learning/teaching tool for both patients and doctors alike. It's what my doc and I are using as the basis for my treatment. And above all, keep asking questions on anything you don't know. Alot of really smart dudes here, I've went from desperate one month to pinning legal test E the next from the education I have learned here and read in med journals. As John Holmes once said "It's all in the delivery" (couldn't help not using that one).

[mth496]

Cam, are you not using blood work to see where t levels are at?? Why not let the proof be shown in the pudding so to speak?? If 100mg a week isnt enough it will refelct. And then if needed bump the dose. Or are you trying to skirt the blood test to get your dose to put you in the higher end of normal range?? It would be very hard for anyone to argue with black and white results on test levels from a blood test.

Very true bro, black and white will show some good proof.

[Camzilla]

I'll be getting another run of bloodwork in another 12 weeks for sure, but may not have alot of time before heading back out to have a discourse on dosage. I'm thinking that if I can get him to agree to 150mg/week I am going to be G2G. If 100/week is looking good I'll stay. But I don't want to undershoot this and be stuck miserable in the middle of the ocean for months on end. I'm still in the learning phase, so definitely open to and advice or guidance. However I'd like to move into a maintenance phase sooner rather than later due to an abbreviated timeline. Ultimately I just don't want to run out while deployed. If I have a little extra no prob, a little less than needed would be unfortunate.

[Rmewrench]

Cam, who is administering your dose? there a few ways to handle this. Personally I'm on 200mg a wk, my doc lets me do my own injects. I went every 6mo for blood work just to make sure dose was good, and now I just go in every 6mo and say hello to her and she writes my script. If these guys are being uptight, self medicate. Hook up some test e and some pins and medicate yourself.

[Camzilla]

I'm administering myself. I'm a healthcare provider so it's no issue for me to handle. I am hoping to have complete effective therapeutic dose legally, but if unable I will supplement on the side. I'm going to do all possible to stay legal and still achieve best possible therapeutic value. Doc initially wanted 200/mo. I've gotten the thumbs up to dose 50/week or 100/2weeks. However I am actually dosing at 100/week. I am thinking that it is starting to have mild therapeutic value, but am waiting until 12 weeks and another run of labs to discuss with doc Again. Some of the things that make me think it is having a positive effect is an obvious increase in libido, and a definite increase in energy. Today I mowed the lawn and also went to the gym and had an awesome chest and arms workout. I rarely do chest and arms on same day, too rough. Hell, I even did a few rows and shrugs too.
Not sure if it's related, but have had a little bit of insomnia last week. None since thrusday. This weekend I have been sleeping till around 9. I never sleep that late, I'm alwys up by 7. It's not a bad thing though, I'm waking up very refreshed and ready to get some.
All in all, I'm feeling pretty good, although not sure if it's the test, or mental because I know I'm doing something help my body. Time and labwork will help clear it up somewhat, I think the true mark is if I continue to feel up to snuff.