* * TREN WITH ADDED ESTROGEN * *

[Riggs]

Alright guys everyone here knows I'm big on published medical journals & literature. Basically I value bro science but I look to find fact based data to further my knowledge of what we do. I love sites like ncbi, PubMed & Drugbank.

My phone, only a few months old, died on me and like a dumbass I didn't have everything backed up online so I lost an ass ton of valuable info.

I've read that, and had the articles archived on my phone but not online, Tren has Estrogen added to it.

If you have any knowledge of this or can point me to a site, article or video that explains this I would be VERY appreciative.

As always I appreciate all of you.

[PrimeTime33]

Probably not exactly what you’re looking for but still a good read. I get a bunch of my information from NCBI. Also, I’m able to do a lot of research at work with EBSCO I wish I could transfer to here for everyone’s knowledge.


Anabolic steroids abuse and male infertility (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4744441/)


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[Riggs]

Probably not exactly what you’re looking for but still a good read. I get a bunch of my information from NCBI. Also, I’m able to do a lot of research at work with EBSCO I wish I could transfer to here for everyone’s knowledge.


Anabolic steroids abuse and male infertility (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4744441/)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hellzyah appreciate ya sharing bud.

[Riggs]

I know they do in the implants they give cattle.

Evaluation of coated steroidal implants containing trenbolone acetate and estradiol-17β on live performance, carcass traits, and sera metabolites in finishing steers | Journal of Animal Science | Oxford Academic (https://academic.oup.com/jas/article/96/5/1704/4925272)

Anabolic implants containing trenbolone acetate (TBA) and estradiol-17β (E2) have been approved for use in confined finishing cattle by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for over 25 y. Implants increase average daily gain (ADG), gain to feed (G:F), and decrease marbling and yield grade compared to nonimplanted cattle fed for slaughter at equal days on feed. Implants increase frame size and delay fattening. This shift in frame size, requires implanted cattle be fed to greater final shrunk body weight (FSBW) in order to reach similar empty body fat (EBF) percentage as compared to nonimplanted cattle. Currently, no other technology is available to producers that match the improvements in performance and hot carcass weight (HCW) achieved via implants at equal back fat (BF) (Reinhardt, 2007).

[bigpapapumpaf]

The pellets Revalor S had estradiol in them. I have not heard of anything other than that. Rev S is not something I ever needed to mess with but there are ways to brew the estradiol out if need be.

BPP

[Plate Smacker]

I don't use AI, because I have found elevated estrogen, even without Tren, leads to more gains.
Here is a video though.


https://youtu.be/cQl8hkKafUo

[Riggs]

I don't use AI, because I have found elevated estrogen, even without Tren, leads to more gains.
Here is a video though.


https://youtu.be/cQl8hkKafUo

It absolutely does.

What I'm doing is trying to get to the bottom of why Tren causes a false estradiol high. We use the Estradiol Sensitive and LC-MS/MS assay to for accurate testing but I like to understand why yah know.

I'm that annoying mutha fuq'r who ask "why?"

[Bullrush]

Where is Mr Google ( Max ) when you need..

Only the best!

[Crosstop]

Where is Mr Google ( Max ) when you need..

Only the best!

[emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji38]


Max is like an Encyclopedia! Lmao

[Riggs]

It absolutely does.

What I'm doing is trying to get to the bottom of why Tren causes a false estradiol high. We use the Estradiol Sensitive and LC-MS/MS assay to for accurate testing but I like to understand why yah know.

I'm that annoying mutha fuq'r who ask "why?"

Where is Mr Google ( Max ) when you need..

[emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji38]

Max is like an Encyclopedia! Lmao

Yes he is. He liked/thanked my original post so he knows its here....Max???? Come thru bud!

[Plate Smacker]

Look into:
ECLIA method used by Labcorb as opposed to their LC/MS for estradiol.
Also Quest Diagnostics Extraction RIA

Some links:
Retrieved from this discussion
False E2 on Tren (https://www.ugbodybuilding.com/threads/23968-tren-and-false-e2?p=414014&viewfull=1#post414014)

https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/cdrh_docs/reviews/k093421.pdf
"Nandrolone was tested and was considered as interference substance; therefore, the sponsor (Roche) has the following limitations in the labeling...Do not use samples from patients under Nandrolone treatment..."

Cross-reactivity of steroid hormone immunoassays: clinical significance and two-dimensional molecular similarity prediction (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4112981/)

As to why, I will have to look more.
I read it somewhere before as well.

More discussion elsewhere:
Forum: UPDATED 3 :Tren Causing Bogus Elevated Estradiol Levels. Roche ECLIA methodology "IS" the culprit (https://www.eroids.com/forum/general/general-talk/updated-3-tren-causing-bogus-elevated-estradiol-levels.-roche-eclia-methodology-is-the-culprit)

[bigpapapumpaf]

Shit, I wrote this 2 times.

Tren stimulates progestogen which is one of 3 sex hormones, the others being testosterone and estrogen. As progestogen increases it increases cholesterol with is turn can be converted into estrogen in the granulosa cells which effects FSH. This increase is what skeews your results. It is not a direct estrogen but you are stimulating the same area and estrogen does increase without a direct use of estrogen enhancing compounds.

As I have been preaching, take caber, reduce prolactin and all of this goes away.

BPP

[Riggs]

Shit, I wrote this 2 times.

Tren stimulates progestogen which is one of 3 sex hormones, the others being testosterone and estrogen. As progestogen increases it increases cholesterol with is turn can be converted into estrogen in the granulosa cells which effects FSH. This increase is what skeews your results. It is not a direct estrogen but you are stimulating the same area and estrogen does increase without a direct use of estrogen enhancing compounds.

As I have been preaching, take caber, reduce prolactin and all of this goes away.

BPP

It's times like this I really hate having to communicate from behind a keyboard. Having a conversation would be sooo much easier.


The 3 major sex steroids (hormones) are progestogens,*androgens, and*estrogens.

Are your comments in regards to men? Estrogens and progestins are female sex hormones and androgens are male sex hormones. You mentioned the 3 male sex hormones. I understand them to be Test, LH & FSH. Testosterone is responsible for male secondary sex characteristics via Estrogen and DHT.

I've also read conflicting data that states the 3 main male sex hormones are Test, Estrogen, and DHT.

What I do know is Progesterone is a precursor to testosterone & it's an antagonist to estrogen. However that is in physiological levels of Progesterone. I thought Progesterone improves cholesterol markers like HDL and LDL. Based on your comments I'm assuming the difference is, in the scenario of Tren directly or indirectly yielding an elevation in Progesterone, supraphysiological levels are an Estrogen agonist? Elevated Progesterone becomes and Estrogen agonist rather than antagonist? Am I interpreting this correctly?

How I understand an antagonist, in pharmacology, is a med that binds to a receptor without activating it. Basically it inhibits the receptors likelihood of being activated by agonists. The way I interpret this is Estrogen levels can be elevated but that doesn't mean it actives the receptors. As far as I know binding and activating a receptor are two different things. Something can have an affinity to bind to a receptor but not activate it.

Again IMO what's important when researching this topic is that we are reading data in regards to men not women. Do a basic search on Progesterone and 90% of the results are in regards to women.

What would help me a ton BigP is post a/some links so I can do some reading in my free time on what you've posted. You know I love this shit.

Really appreciate you chiming in. You've got my wheels turning. Thx4 seeing to it i only get a few hours of sleep tonight. No doubt I'll be up reading!

LMAO - it's 2:22 and guess what I'm still doing....I do think my eyes are gonna bleed if I don't step away & get some sleep. I'm out 6:30 comes early.

[bigpapapumpaf]

Sorry, I've been so busy I missed this. I will post up research late tonight.

BPP

[bigpapapumpaf]

Riggsy,

So after looking this over I realized that half of what I said didn't end up being save despite having wrote it originally 2 times. I don't know what happened that day.

First, there is some internet talk of testing methods being flawed as the reason that estrogen is going up. I do not believe that is the case but I will look that over in more detail as I can. If the tests being conducted are not also testing prolactin, they would not be worthwhile.

I believe this is caused by reduction in dopamine, which I why I preach about using caber all the time.

If you look at how prolactin effects the system, I went on the rant about sex hormoes which I will skip here. Prolactin lowers dopamine which you can search for here: Prolactin | You and Your Hormones from the Society for Endocrinology (https://www.yourhormones.info/hormones/prolactin/#:~:text=Dopamine%20restrains%20prolactin%20produc tion%2C%20so,creates%20a%20negative%20feedback%20l oop).

Reduced dopamine will also reduce testosterone: Dopamine and Testosterone: Making the Connection in Male Libido (https://sanescohealth.com/blog/male-libido-dopamine-testosterone/)

If testosterone is lowered, estrogen is increased. They are the yin and yang in a males body.

So my bro science has always been when using tren to reduce, not eliminate prolactin which in turn keeps my estrogen in check. I think another reason why us old dogs also always take test with tren is to avoid the scenario above.

BPP

[Riggs]

Nice. Appreciate the explanation. I'm loving the conversation BPP. It's what drives my friends crazy. I always go full on nerd in out discussions.

Now I've never heard of PRL inhibiting DA. I understand it to be the other way around as DA is commonly referred to as the PIF (Prolactin Inhibiting Factor). There are also several PRF (Prolactin Releasing Factors) that come in to play here.

I do need to read the article you've linked but in the meantime I'll explain my understanding of this topic....again "my understanding."

Our body has a natural pulse wherein it endogenously (natty) produces small amounts of Test in low doses. The issues most guys run in to with AAS is when they dose (pin) large amounts of T infrequently. This causes a chain reaction of negative sides and an imbalance of hormones.

Bare with me as I explain my understanding of this a little more....

The "rise" in Test stimulates DA (Dopamine) secretion at the receptor. Dopamine is known as the PIF (Prolactin Inhibiting Factor) and inhibits PRL (Prolactin) secretion.

So IMO elevated PRL is an indicator of low DA but PRL is not a direct and indirect mechanisms of action on DA.

Looking at it from the angle of high E2...the aromatase enzyme stops the "rise" in Test and as a result secretion of dopamine is inhibited. This allows for prolactin to spike as well. Also this is where libido crashes and you lose the ability to have an orgasm.

It all centers around one action... the "rise" in Testosterone.

The operative word in the above is "rise". The "rise" in test, and it not being blocked by aromatization, is an action of homeostasis and yields the natural balance. Our body has a pulse and releases hormones, or in this case Testosterone, in small amounts and in short intervals. So dosing ED with a low dose mimics the bodies natural pulse, yields the lowest possible sides by keeping you out of the diminishing returns zone and keeps aromatization at a minimum. Test is not down regulated, estradiol and Prolactin are kept low yielding less water retention (bloat) and allows for increased libido. This also yields an overall feeling of well being and reinforces the alpha male feeling we all love so much.

I'll say something I've said a hundred times before....PRL only thrives in an Estro rich environment for the reasons I stated above. Dial in your AI and run Caber




Riggsy,

So after looking this over I realized that half of what I said didn't end up being save despite having wrote it originally 2 times. I don't know what happened that day.

First, there is some internet talk of testing methods being flawed as the reason that estrogen is going up. I do not believe that is the case but I will look that over in more detail as I can. If the tests being conducted are not also testing prolactin, they would not be worthwhile.

I believe this is caused by reduction in dopamine, which I why I preach about using caber all the time.

If you look at how prolactin effects the system, I went on the rant about sex hormoes which I will skip here. Prolactin lowers dopamine which you can search for here: Prolactin | You and Your Hormones from the Society for Endocrinology (https://www.yourhormones.info/hormones/prolactin/#:~:text=Dopamine%20restrains%20prolactin%20produc tion%2C%20so,creates%20a%20negative%20feedback%20l oop).

Reduced dopamine will also reduce testosterone: Dopamine and Testosterone: Making the Connection in Male Libido (https://sanescohealth.com/blog/male-libido-dopamine-testosterone/)

If testosterone is lowered, estrogen is increased. They are the yin and yang in a males body.

So my bro science has always been when using tren to reduce, not eliminate prolactin which in turn keeps my estrogen in check. I think another reason why us old dogs also always take test with tren is to avoid the scenario above.

BPP

[Riggs]

I mentioned this before and I still think it's relative to this discussion....direct and indirect mechanisms of hormone actions differ in males and females. Specifically the relationship we're discussing with PRL, DA & T.


Are your comments in regards to men?

* * * This is from your linked article....

65148

* * Here's another one....

Prolactin Releasing Factor - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics (https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/prolactin-releasing-factor)

65149

* * IMO the article you've quoted only applies to our natural production of T and does not apply while we're on blast, cruise or HRT....


Reduced dopamine will also reduce testosterone: Dopamine and Testosterone: Making the Connection in Male Libido (https://sanescohealth.com/blog/male-libido-dopamine-testosterone/)

65150
65151


Riggsy,

So after looking this over I realized that half of what I said didn't end up being save despite having wrote it originally 2 times. I don't know what happened that day.

First, there is some internet talk of testing methods being flawed as the reason that estrogen is going up. I do not believe that is the case but I will look that over in more detail as I can. If the tests being conducted are not also testing prolactin, they would not be worthwhile.

I believe this is caused by reduction in dopamine, which I why I preach about using caber all the time.

If you look at how prolactin effects the system, I went on the rant about sex hormoes which I will skip here. Prolactin lowers dopamine which you can search for here: Prolactin | You and Your Hormones from the Society for Endocrinology (https://www.yourhormones.info/hormones/prolactin/#:~:text=Dopamine%20restrains%20prolactin%20produc tion%2C%20so,creates%20a%20negative%20feedback%20l oop).

Reduced dopamine will also reduce testosterone: Dopamine and Testosterone: Making the Connection in Male Libido (https://sanescohealth.com/blog/male-libido-dopamine-testosterone/)

If testosterone is lowered, estrogen is increased. They are the yin and yang in a males body.

So my bro science has always been when using tren to reduce, not eliminate prolactin which in turn keeps my estrogen in check. I think another reason why us old dogs also always take test with tren is to avoid the scenario above.

BPP

[Riggs]

Maybe it's in reference to men using labs that use the old ECLIA
Immunoassay and not LC/MS/MS. For example one of my guys used a lab that uses ECLIA method. His estradiol was @ 46. I had him redo the bloods with LC/MS/MS assay and his estradiol was @ 19.

Is this what you're referring to?



First, there is some internet talk of testing methods being flawed as the reason that estrogen is going up. I do not believe that is the case but I will look that over in more detail as I can. If the tests being conducted are not also testing prolactin, they would not be worthwhile.

[bigpapapumpaf]

The other side of the coin is as dopamine goes up and down, so does serotonin and serotonin has an effect on E2 which you can read here: An overlooked connection: serotonergic mediation of estrogen-related physiology and pathology (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1327664/)

I was on this kick on another post and should have been much more specific.

WE both agree, take caber, take caber, take caber with tren and you should have no issues.

BPP

[silntrunin]

Interesting stuff here guys. Appreciate the links.

Have to be honest, in all my years of using Tren I never used caber but I also never really had any issues with prolactin that I know of. My blood work always came back decent with nothing to out of wack so I never felt the need to use caber. Having said that I have a few buddies that always needed it when on tren so my guess is its like everything else. Everyone's bodies react differently to a certain degree using different compounds.

[Riggs]

The other side of the coin is as dopamine goes up and down, so does serotonin and serotonin has an effect on E2 which you can read here: An overlooked connection: serotonergic mediation of estrogen-related physiology and pathology (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1327664/)

I was on this kick on another post and should have been much more specific.

WE both agree, take caber, take caber, take caber with tren and you should have no issues.

BPP

Abso'fuckin'lutely IMO Caber is a must with Tren and I've said it many times before I feel much better in Caber all yr long. The studies I've read state that as long as you stay below 300mg then take a break the risk to the heart is minimal and they don't even recommend labs until 300mg. If it's something you're concerned about then again based on my findings run Caber while on blast, any blast, then cycle off just as you do the AAS.

All I can say is try it. Add Caber to ur next blast, and I'm of course not speaking to you BPP more to the general reader, and see for yourself how you feel/respond.

[Caustic Charm]

I have absolutely nothing useful to add...trivia note I didn’t see mentioned in the thread. Your body pumps out prolactin after the man has an orgasm. Along with several other brain chemicals including serotonin

The release of prolactin is linked to the feeling of sexual satisfaction, and it also mediates the “recovery time” that men are well aware of—the time a guy must wait before “giving it another go.” Studies have also shown that men deficient in prolactin have faster recovery times.

Caber is why you feel good year round Riggs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[myystanng]

Abso'fuckin'lutely IMO Caber is a must with Tren and I've said it many times before I feel much better in Caber all yr long. The studies I've read state that as long as you stay below 300mg then take a break the risk to the heart is minimal and they don't even recommend labs until 300mg. If it's something you're concerned about then again based on my findings run Caber while on blast, any blast, then cycle off just as you do the AAS.

All I can say is try it. Add Caber to ur next blast, and I'm of course not speaking to you BPP more to the general reader, and see for yourself how you feel/respond.

What about a light run of 200/week? Does that require caber.


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[Riggs]

What about a light run of 200/week? Does that require caber.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThere is no cookie cutter protocol for PRL. But I know what you're asking and it's quite possible to run 200mg TBA a wee and not "need" Caber.

[Drillit]

There is no cookie cutter protocol for PRL. But I know what you're asking and it's quite possible to run 200mg TBA a wee and not "need" Caber.

So heres some shit, to answer not answer the original question.
Last big blast I ran 500 deca and 800 tren. No AI and no caber.
This blast, I run 600 npp and my tits start leaking. No rhyme or reason. I’d say run bloods after a few weeks and see where that number lies. If nothing else gave caber on hand because it’s tough to get at a moments notice.

[Riggs]

So heres some shit, to answer not answer the original question.
Last big blast I ran 500 deca and 800 tren. No AI and no caber.
This blast, I run 600 npp and my tits start leaking. No rhyme or reason. I’d say run bloods after a few weeks and see where that number lies. If nothing else gave caber on hand because it’s tough to get at a moments notice.Agree 100%