HRT Exit Strategy [Archive] - BrotherhoodOfPain.com

beanlicker

02-23-2013, 07:08 AM

Posted by Cashout at Steroidology - www.steroidology.com/forum/anabolic-steroid-forum/612215-hrt-exit-strategy.html (http://www.steroidology.com/forum/anabolic-steroid-forum/612215-hrt-exit-strategy.html) - Follow this thread for further info

As I have recently past my 2 year anniversary of HRT, I have spent some time reflecting on what I have accomplished with this program.
After extensive research, I turned to HRT a possible solution to my declining test (http://www.buytest.info) levels in 2009. At the time Istarted HRT, my test (http://www.buytest.info) level was 579 ng/dl. Not low by most standards but about 30% off my normal levels of 900+ ng/dl that I had maintain for some 15 years.
The symptoms of my declining test (http://www.buytest.info) were as follows...
1. Frequent overtraining. I had reached a point for the first time in my bodybuilding lifestyle where about every 3 months, I would find myself overtrained. In 20 years daily committed train, this had never happened before.
2. Persistent and chronic minor illness. I had begun a steady process of developing repetitive colds and flu-like illnesses that were a function of #1 above.
3. Loss of muscle mass. Because of #1 & especially #2 above, I had drop about nearly 10 pounds of quality muscle.
4. Lack of metal focus. Again, I had never experienced this in my adult life in any capacity. Focus and will are the only things that I have ever possessed in abundance.

In my 2 years on HRT, I can say that I have remedied all of the above symptoms. So, I would declare my HRT a smashing success.
However, there is still one facet of my HRT that I have yet to assess my EXIT STRATEGY.
Like everything business related Ive owned and been involved in, I always have an exit strategy in the event that it is ever needed.
So, at this juncture, I am considering testing my HRT Exit Strategy to see if will indeed produce the results that I expect.
I am considering this not as a means to quit HRT but to reassure myself that I have covered all my bases and can proceed forward on HRT for the indefinite future knowing that if there is ever an issue down the road, I have already operationalize and tested my exit strategy successfully.
I started constructing my exit strategy based on some of my own previous research and personal experiences from my days using AAS to supplement by competitive bodybuilding. Also, Ive spent a tremendous amount of time and energy in the past 4 weeks discussing my exit strategy with several very knowledgeable physicians.
So, here is the plan that we have constructed and I will follow

Week HCG clomid (http://www.clomidinfo.com) Nolva letro (http://www.letrozoleinfo.com)
1 M/W/F/Su 2000 1.25 M/Th
2 T/Th/Sa 2000 1.25 M/Th
3 M/W/F 2000 1.25 M/Th
3 Sat/Sun 100 40 1.25 M/Th
4 Every Day 100 40 1.25 M/Th
5 100 40 1.25 M/Th
6 100 40 1.25 M/Th
7 40 1.25 M/Th
8 40 1.25 M/Th
9 1.25 M/Th
10 1.25 M/Th

I will take my last 100 mg shot of test (http://www.buytest.info) cyp (http://www.buycypionate.info) on the Monday one week before I start my exit. During the week before exiting, I will also have my blood work done for comparative purposes.
My blood work will be done again on the Friday of the 3rd week towards the end of the HCG treatments, again when I discontinue the clomid (http://www.clomidinfo.com) treatments, and finally, two weeks after I complete the Nolva treatments.
So, I hope to kick this exit strategy off on the Monday Dec 5th.
I will chronicle the results here for those who are interested.

beanlicker

02-23-2013, 07:28 AM

Another HRT exit strategy was posted by MarcFraz1 at UK-M - Follow this thread for further info - www.uk-muscle.co.uk/testosterone-replacement-therapy/169286-my-hpta-restart-journal-following-trt.html (http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/testosterone-replacement-therapy/169286-my-hpta-restart-journal-following-trt.html)

My HPTA restart journal following TRT
http://cas.criteo.com/delivery/lg.php?ckmode=0&bannerid=0&campaignid=0&zoneid=62372&pb=1&bizmodel=0&catCol=0&catId=0&cb=6c00425077&rtb=0&zc=%257cNNq%252beKDyA1ofQbjEQjD5wA%253d%253d%257c&b=_%25252fLqVauF2f3GKuekfelxxrA%25253d%25253d&bi=%7cNNq%2beKDyA1r7alAAWUXIq3RbBozGcboe0%2bQuyAHY 220%3d%7c&loc=http%3a%2f%2fwww.uk-muscle.co.uk%2ftestosterone-replacement-therapy%2f169286-my-hpta-restart-journal-following-trt.html&referer=http%3a%2f%2fwww.google.com%2furl%3fsa%3dt %26rct%3dj%26q%3dprotocol+to+come+off+trt%26source %3dweb%26cd%3d4%26sqi%3d2%26ved%3d0CE4QFjAD%26url% 3dhttp%3a%2f%2fwww.uk-muscle.co.uk%2ftestosterone-replacement-therapy%2f169286-my-hpta-restart-journal-following-trt.html%26ei%3dAmUoUfGcN4Si8gTi0oGwBQ%26usg%3dAFQ jCNGdglYQ_7D5kkOHDiqSdiA0TCnS_Q&c=B4mqdBgpZRLcaZfeC7f-mw&iii=174391819&arbitrageid=68bda11b4d894c34a3be47b038137ee0&impressionid=68bd4e606c264bb99b7ff2008590420f

http://track.adform.net/serving/cookie/match/?party=12&redirect=http%3a%2f%2fdis.criteo.com%2frex%2fmatch .aspx%3fc%3d16%26uid%3d%25%25USER_ID%25%25
Hi Guys,

I thought i would set up a journal logging my attempt to restart my HPTA, having been on TRT for the past 3 years.

Background information:

I am 21 years old and have been on TRT since I was 18, prior to this I went through normal puberty and had normal testosterone levels. However, following my 18th birthday i decided to diet and reached a body fat percentage of 3.6% (unintentionally). I elminated all of the fats from my diet, which was also low in CHO but high in protein. At this time, i was weight training for long periods of time, most days. This carried on for a period of months, and i was concerned as my sex drive had completely vanished, i was depressed and also had an inability to concentrate. I went to my doctors, had my bloods and my free t-level was only 4.8. Ever since then i have been put on TRT, first starting on Sus 100, then Sus 250, Nebido and now i am on the gels.

Currently:

Whilst being on TRT I have managed to regain weight and my body fat is around 9-10%, my diet and training has completely changed too. At least 30% of my calories come from fats and i train every other day for no longer than 45mins (trying to limit cortisol build up).
I am due for an operation to have a varicocele emobalisation next Wednesday, and the following day i will begin my exit from TRT. The main reasons for me wanting to quit TRT are that i am very young, risks of prostate cancer in the future, fertility, i dont feel all that 'good' on it and the UK NHS TRT protocols are very poor.

I have spoken to Hackskii about my exit and we are both very optimistic that it will work, it is as follows:

2,500iu HCG EOD with 150iu HMG EOD for 16days
100mg CLOMID ED (split in two 50mg doses) for 30 days
20mg TAMOXIFEN ED for 45 days (tapering off after the 45days by halfing the dose every 5 days)

I will also take 50mcg of IGF-1 LR3, 5days on 2 off PWO or in the morning. (Hoping to maintain some, if not all of my mass acheived during TRT and it is also supposed to help with the testes size).

Supplements:

1,000iu Vitamin E
5,000iu Vitamin D3
25mg DHEA
Fish Oils
ZMA (empty stomach before bed)
Creatine
Whey Protein, Dextrose and Maltdextrin (PWO)

Training and Diet:

4 days a week split; Legs, Shoulders, Chest/Back, Arms

Sessions will be 45 mins or shorter, focussing on compound movements and NOT going past failure.

Diet; Approx 35%FAT 35%CHO 30%PRO

I will regularly log my progress throughout my exit, and i hope this can serve as help to other people who may well be in a similar situation to myself. I have no doubt that i will be feeling extremly rough throughout the 45 days of the protocol, so it would be great if i could get support off you guys on this forum.

My next log will be after my operation, next Wednesday.

Marc

http://cas.criteo.com/delivery/lg.php?ckmode=0&bannerid=0&campaignid=0&zoneid=62372&pb=1&bizmodel=0&catCol=0&catId=0&cb=6c00425077&rtb=0&zc=%257cNNq%252beKDyA1ofQbjEQjD5wA%253d%253d%257c&b=_%25252fLqVauF2f3GKuekfelxxrA%25253d%25253d&bi=%7cNNq%2beKDyA1r7alAAWUXIq3RbBozGcboe0%2bQuyAHY 220%3d%7c&loc=http%3a%2f%2fwww.uk-muscle.co.uk%2ftestosterone-replacement-therapy%2f169286-my-hpta-restart-journal-following-trt.html&referer=http%3a%2f%2fwww.google.com%2furl%3fsa%3dt %26rct%3dj%26q%3dprotocol+to+come+off+trt%26source %3dweb%26cd%3d4%26sqi%3d2%26ved%3d0CE4QFjAD%26url% 3dhttp%3a%2f%2fwww.uk-muscle.co.uk%2ftestosterone-replacement-therapy%2f169286-my-hpta-restart-journal-following-trt.html%26ei%3dAmUoUfGcN4Si8gTi0oGwBQ%26usg%3dAFQ jCNGdglYQ_7D5kkOHDiqSdiA0TCnS_Q&c=B4mqdBgpZRLcaZfeC7f-mw&iii=174391819&arbitrageid=68bda11b4d894c34a3be47b038137ee0&impressionid=68bd4e606c264bb99b7ff2008590420f

grim

02-23-2013, 04:09 PM

A doctor forced this exit strategy on me and made me a cripple for life...
Be sure you watch for any signs..

beanlicker

02-23-2013, 04:40 PM

A doctor forced this exit strategy on me and made me a cripple for life...
Be sure you watch for any signs..

Grim, since you've been there, what to you recommend for those wanting to get out of TRT?

grim

02-23-2013, 05:04 PM

Honestly don't know tbh.
I'd of preferred to of stayed on tbh

ShortnWide

02-23-2013, 05:10 PM

A doctor forced this exit strategy on me and made me a cripple for life...
Be sure you watch for any signs..

Could you please elaborate on what could happen?

kuntrykok

02-23-2013, 05:11 PM

Grim, did that cause your strokes?

ShortnWide

02-23-2013, 05:11 PM

I'm df sub'd on this one. I have been on for almost 3 years and am constantly thinking about trying to rebound.

bhcolex50x

02-23-2013, 05:29 PM

Subd

grim

02-23-2013, 07:34 PM

Grim, did that cause your strokes?
Yes being forced off trt and onto clomid caused them..

krustus

03-05-2013, 03:11 PM

so do you think clomid for pct could be dangerous?

grim

03-05-2013, 06:35 PM

so do you think clomid for pct could be dangerous?
it can be, 1 of the sides is strokes.
Many ppl report mini stroke symptoms wo realizing what they are..

krustus

03-05-2013, 06:47 PM

wow.... didn't know that! is tamoxifen or torem the same?

joebob

03-05-2013, 11:56 PM

wow.... didn't know that! is tamoxifen or torem the same?

tamoxifen seems to be a yes.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15477543

And Torem is a maybe as it seems to be safer.
Toremifene
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16289904

Also this is why I always stay on a massive dose of fish oil. And by massive I stay in the 10 to 20 gram range a day.

Consumption of fish and fish oils and decreased risk of stroke.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12624561

Abstract

Consumption of fish and fish oils was first associated with decreased risk of cardiovascular disease almost 50 years ago. Since then, a number of epidemiologic studies have evaluated whether their consumption is specifically associated with stroke. Ecologic/cross-sectional and case-control studies have generally shown an inverse association between consumption of fish and fish oils and stroke risk. Results from five prospective studies have been less consistent, with one showing no association, one showing a possible inverse association, and three demonstrating a significant inverse association. In the latest and largest of these, the Nurses Health Study, the relative risk of total stroke was lower, although not significantly so, among women who regularly ate fish than among those who did not. A significant decrease in the risk of thrombotic stroke (relative risk, 0.49; 95% confidence interval, 0.26-0.93) was observed among women who ate fish at least two times per week compared with women who ate fish less than once per month, after adjustment for age, smoking, and other cardiovascular risk factors; a nonsignificant decrease was observed among women in the highest quintile of long-chain omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acid intake. No association was observed between consumption of fish or fish oil and hemorrhagic stroke. These data support the hypothesis that consumption of fish several times per week reduces the risk of thrombotic stroke but does not increase the risk of hemorrhagic stroke.

jdb3

03-06-2013, 06:52 PM

it can be, 1 of the sides is strokes.
Many ppl report mini stroke symptoms wo realizing what they are..

WHAT!?!? STROKES FROM CLOMID!?!? Any sources on this?!? I have never heard of this and recoomend clomid for alot of people! WTF

jurgensplurgen

03-07-2013, 02:42 AM

joebob

03-07-2013, 05:51 AM

http://www.rxlist.com/clomid-side-effects-drug-center.htm
http://www.drugs.com/sfx/clomid-side-effects.html
it's a pretty commonly documented risk of clomid therapy, usually considered worthwhile when someone is taking it to treat cancer...

This is true but I wish I could get my hands on some real numbers it seems very rare from what I have read but I cant find any solid numbers. . so take that with a grain of salt.

jurgensplurgen

03-07-2013, 06:07 AM

its uncommon when used as directed, but the cardiovascular side effects and increased bp of the aas increases the risk. not a problem for most, but if you have a family history of stroke, chronic high bp, or other risk factors id just use another serm.

Greenegorilla2

03-09-2013, 12:27 AM

I'm glad I never have to pct... With the right amount of Hcg and using it for the right amount of days I never have to pct. even after 1200mg test and 900 mg tren.

grim

03-12-2013, 02:26 AM

its a common side effect. ppl report stroke symptoms all the time using clomid for pct.

I had 6 strokes caused by clomid.

Blurry vision, disiness, numbness, headaches just to name a few i hear ppl complain all the time about on clomid are signs of a possible stroke.

High doses of fishoil can actually be bad btw and cause bleeds another form of stroke and or other conditions.

jdb3

03-12-2013, 02:38 AM

High doses of fishoil can actually be bad btw and cause bleeds another form of stroke and or other conditions.

Any literature on this?

grim

03-12-2013, 02:56 AM

its pretty common knowledge :/

You thin your blood 2 much you can cause a bleed...

grim

03-12-2013, 03:00 AM

http://www.livestrong.com/article/88012-fish-oil-bleeding/

just 1 of many...

Greenegorilla2

03-12-2013, 02:48 PM

Phil Stevens a well known strongman has taken up to 50g, I have done a lot of searching and can't really find any major reported incidents,I take 10grams a day. Def helps me.

grim

03-12-2013, 03:34 PM

just because someone has taken them and lived doesn't equal safe.
It's common knowledge you thin your blood 2 much it can cause a bleed.
This information is all over stroke type literature which I kinda have read a lot.
Including the top neurologist in my state telling me this.
A simple google search brings up thousands of results how high doses can cause a bleed.
A bleed is just as dangerous if not more so than a clot...

grim

03-12-2013, 03:37 PM

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/993.html

Ironically, taking too much fish oil can actually increase the risk of stroke.

joebob

03-12-2013, 07:28 PM

High doses of fishoil can actually be bad btw and cause bleeds another form of stroke and or other conditions.

I believe with out a drug interaction of some kind this would be incredibly unlikely but with a preexisting condition it might prove to be true. The 50 grams a day someone else said OK I can see that causing problems but 10-20 range I find unlikely but anything is possible.

grim

03-12-2013, 08:35 PM

joebob

03-13-2013, 06:18 PM

yet study after study and all current stroke information says the exact opposite.
Studies saying fishoil is safe is in the 3 gram range NOT 10-20 grams.
I have extensively researched this, talked to actual professionals on the subject,
It is first grade, too much of any thinning, anti clotting agent IS BAD for you!

And those studies are done on people who have pre existing conditions correct?

This article sums it up nicely in that it all depends on the type of stroke and pre existing conditions.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/89215-fish-oil-stroke/

There are many studies showing that fish oil lowers the chance of a "stroke" yes the type matters and pre existing conditions matter as well but arguments can be made for both safety and side effects of every drug case in point the reason this thread started clomid is a great Cancer drug but seems to have a greater indices of stroke over toremifene citrate.

Sorry for the grammar and lack of ncbi quotes but doing this on a phone is a pain in the ass.....

joebob

03-13-2013, 06:33 PM

grim

03-13-2013, 09:53 PM

Greenegorilla2

03-13-2013, 10:00 PM

Grim I agree with ya, I def feel like to each their own. If u can take plenty with no problems good for you, the facts are there... Fish oil thins blood which may lead to bleed which may lead to stroke and other problems. I guess u have to find your sweet spot! I wonder if its the omega 3 or omega 6 that causes the problems. I know u need more 3 then 6 so who knows.

joebob

03-13-2013, 10:40 PM

Blood work isn't going to change in such an issue...

It's simple and well documented large doses of fishoil actually cause strokes...

Argue all you want, its not gonna change those simple common sense facts.

That is not a fact it's a moderately supported hypothesis there is a decade of research saying it lowers the chance of stroke with a few studies supporting your point all using individuals who have prior strokes or genetically more like to have one. Your wrong bloods will change as far as LDL,HDL it will put you in a more favorable profile and less plaque buildup which lowers the chance of stroke and cardiovascular issues as well as directly lowering blood pressure...either way there are hardly any facts when it comes to research this recent....

joebob

03-13-2013, 10:59 PM

Blood work isn't going to change in such an issue...

It's simple and well documented large doses of fishoil actually cause strokes...

Argue all you want, its not gonna change those simple common sense facts.

Claiming a few studies are fact does not make it so there is more research supporting its use to lower the plaque levels...increase in HDL over LDL all of which help lower the indices of stroke.....you test LDL,HDL via blood work to put that statement in context so yes it will help show your likelihood of stroke no not testing for thinning of the blood...although given partial thromboplastin time is a test to show clotting time and can find someone using heparin a blood thinning drug it might also be used to test for "thin blood "<<<pure conjecture on my part...

I have no reason to argue. claim what you want there is plenty of data"Data not fact" on either side but given this site will mostly have health male "users" looking to correct LDL vs HDL from use it makes a lot of sense to use fish oil period.

grim

03-14-2013, 03:45 PM

Greenegorilla2

03-14-2013, 04:26 PM

Bros. please we are just spreading good info to protect eachother, lets not make this into a pissing match haha.

joebob

03-14-2013, 04:27 PM

sigh thousands of studies, you know the professionals, common sense ...

too much fish oil is as dangerous or more so than not taking any.....

but youll take studies that say taking fish oil = good but not those same studies that say too much fish oil = bad?

Errr umm ok....

and btw they do not do the same tests via a normal blood panel...

I get them done..I'm actually signed up to magazines, go to the top docs in the state, etc exclusively on the subject.

and 1 of the top things they warned me of was NOT taking too much fish oil.

But I guess you know more than studies, and the top neuro surgeon in my state.,

What are your credentials so I can correct him? He's only a professor and holds several degrees on the subject.

I actually do hold a post graduate degree myself but I feel no need to continue to debate we are never going to agree.....There are thousands of studies showing the benefits of fish oil and you still fail to recognize the difference between healthy subjects and people with preexisting conditions but i digress....... You do have a preexisting condition and probably should follow your doctors advice honestly though I am confused why you are on a source board given your history it would seem you would be very anti AAS given the case studies suggesting the link between them and stroke.

Anabolic androgenic steroids and a stroke in an athlete: case report. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3408335)
Anabolic androgenic steroid-induced cardiomyopathy, stroke and peripheral vascular disease. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22693308)

grim

03-15-2013, 12:42 AM

ummm i never said fishoil was bad. I even take fishoil daily...
in the studies they do not state only preexisting conditions that is your little add on to try to justify and cherry pick..
Anti AAS?
Hmmm im kinda a long time vet and admin....

Seams there is A LOT you don't know about.

AAS had NOTHING to do with my strokes either, but more attempts by you to try to dismiss the very simple fact too much fish oil = bad.
This is third grade information, seriously...

There are numerous causes of increased risk of stroke, 1 of them being high doses of fish oil. It really isnt that hard to comprehend.

grim

03-15-2013, 12:47 AM

Bros. please we are just spreading good info to protect eachother, lets not make this into a pissing match haha.
spreading information that increases stroke risk as 'good' is not good information, it's flat out dangerous!

joebob

03-15-2013, 03:10 AM

spreading information that increases stroke risk as 'good' is not good information, it's flat out dangerous!

Over inflating the "risk" to scare people away from a useful substance is no better.. But like I said I'll just agree to disagree on this one keep claiming what you will....

joebob

03-15-2013, 03:26 AM

Last time I am going to bother to respond to this thread and ill even rep you to show I have no ill will I just disagree that there is a preponderance of data supporting your claim...

ummm i never said fishoil was bad. I even take fishoil daily...
in the studies they do not state only preexisting conditions that is your little add on to try to justify and cherry pick..
[Fact is they choose the subjects for these studies by picking peope with a predisposition to stroke or has a prior history. How do you think they are testing if it causes or lowers the chance of stroke......

Anti AAS?
Hmmm im kinda a long time vet and admin....
I was pointing you at other data and if you have a prevous historty of stroke you might want to consider it
Seams there is A LOT you don't know about.
Do I really need to address this your just stooping to name calling now bring data to a converstion not names its sad and honestly I thought you were better then the past 2 posts before this one you were arguing on data which I can respect but this type of thing...
AAS had NOTHING to do with my strokes either, but more attempts by you to try to dismiss the very simple fact too much fish oil = bad.
This is third grade information, seriously...
I wont even comment on this joke
There are numerous causes of increased risk of stroke, 1 of them being high doses of fish oil. It really isnt that hard to comprehend.

The one thing we seem to be able to agree on is that there are many causes and more then one type of stroke I hope you dont have another one its a sad condition and thats great your using fish oil.

Big Moose

03-15-2013, 03:49 PM

Wow that is terrible. My take on TRT - which I have been on for maybe just 4 months is that my body stopped producing the correct amount of a hormone that it needs. So I guess just like I have to take T-4 everyday for the rest of my life- I guess ill take test too. Also- Grims experience can be an eye opener to everyone- clomid may not be the best choice of PCT anyway- and could be dangerous. My friend who works closely with his fertility Dr. Was at zero test and zero sperm count. He told the dr he took clomid and the Dr chuckles and said, that's not what you need. Low and behold- a few months of straight HCG at 500-1000 iu 3x per week and he is back to normal test range AND sperm count. So although for years we all have been told to take high amounts of clomid post cycle- try HCG alone because this can help more then you may think.

grim

03-15-2013, 06:22 PM

all science, studies, doctors claim this.

so you cherry pick what studies to follow?

Seriously this is third grade if you've looked into strokes, blood clotting, thinning or any of that nature.

All of science and doctors, studies appear to back me up...

btw your own argument you are trying to use says fishoil DOES NOT help at all. You CANT have it both ways...

And studies are done of people with no prior occurrence all the time. They lay out if the people were predetermined to be @ risk or not...

I have also linked to NUMEROUS sites backing my claim, do a google search, ask a neurologist, seriously this is THIRD grade COMMON sense.

Greenegorilla2

03-15-2013, 06:24 PM

A lot of information we used or still use is probably outdated there is still a ton of information to be brought out, and even more misconceptions in what is healthy and what is not. We take it day by day and adapt and change our ways if not you will pay the price.

grim

03-15-2013, 06:34 PM

from the mayo clinic
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/fish-oil/NS_patient-fishoil/DSECTION=safety
Omega-3 fatty acids may increase the risk of bleeding. Caution is advised in patients with bleeding disorders or those taking drugs that may increase the risk of bleeding. Dosing adjustments may be necessary.
The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) classifies intake of up to three grams of omega-3 fatty acids from fish daily as GRAS (generally regarded as safe).

How many more 'sources' you need? Do I need to get video documentation from doctors? Seriously I am shaking my head you have such trouble with this BASIC concept.

Greenegorilla2

03-15-2013, 06:38 PM

The proof is in the pudding right grim? Haha solid info guys

joebob

03-16-2013, 06:40 PM

...a bit thick on the insults I was trying to be respectful but I'll waste 5 more minutes on you....

". Patients with high triglyceride levels will benefit from large doses (3–4 g/d) of EPA/DHA, a dose that almost certainly would require fish oil supplements."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3096360/

Your basic fish oil supplement most people will buy..

http://www.optimumnutrition.com/products/enteric-coated-fish-oil-softgels-p-188.html

So for 1000mg or 1gram of fish oil you get 300mg DHA/EPA...300*10=3000or 3Grams....Is that third grade enough for you...because you would consume 10 grams to get that 3grams of DHA/EPA

And I would call ncbi a better source....

grim

03-16-2013, 09:53 PM

sigh you are still skipping around the SIMPLE fact that to much fish oil = bad..

So its obviously not third grade enough for you.

Hell you cant even do what you claim you are gonna do...

btw high triglycerides is not strokes or bleeds, you do get this right?
making your point COMPLETELY MUTE.

If anything your article backs me up..

grim

03-16-2013, 09:56 PM

btw in your own study...

As early as 1944, Sinclair described the rarity of CHD in Greenland Eskimos despite their consumption of diet high in fat and cholesterol.23 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3096360/#i1524-5012-8-2-49-Sinclair1) Sinclair observed that the Eskimos had a tendency to bruise and to bleed easily, and subsequently Bang and Dyerberg demonstrated that the Eskimos had reduced platelet counts (50http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/corehtml/pmc/pmcents/thinsp.gif000–80&hairsp;000/mm3 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3096360/#i1524-5012-8-2-49-Lavie3) lower) and decreased platelet aggregation, resulting in prolonged bleeding times

but keep bypassing what doesnt serve your cause...

joebob

03-16-2013, 10:51 PM

So as I started with I believe it to be incredibly unlikely to cause a problem....
". During a mean follow-up period of 33 months, 1 major bleeding episode occurred in the treatment group and no major bleeding episodes occurred in the control group (p = 1.0). During follow-up, 4 minor bleeding episodes (2.2%) occurred in the treatment group and 7 (3.9%) in the control group. More patients had minor bleeding complications in the control group than in the treatment group;"

"In conclusion, high-dose fish oil is safe in combination with aspirin and clopidogrel and does not increase the risk of bleeding compared with that seen with aspirin and clopidogrel alone"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/19801023/

No matter how you twist the studies there is very little if any added risk

"More patients had minor bleeding complications in the control group than in the treatment group; however, the difference was not statistically significant (p = 0.5"

But I'm fine with your insults please avoid the fish oil it's dangerous to your health.

A nice explanation of the risk referencing the study.

http://blog.trackyourplaque.com/2009/10/does-fish-oil-cause-blood-thinning.html

Seems the test I referenced would also work but hey you must be right..

joebob

03-16-2013, 10:55 PM

It's also really getting funny that you must resort to insults instead of citing studies...

grim

03-16-2013, 11:04 PM

your own studies talk of increased bleeding.
The mayo clinic, the federal health. major stroke organization, neurologists, etc, etc all say high doses of fish oil increase bleeding.

My god man you have continued to twist changing from bleeding and strokes to 'triglycerides;' even after you stated numerous times you were done.

You are right the studies you rely on are wrong, the mayo clinic wrong, top neurosciences are all wrong, common sense wrong.

Sheesh seriously, about to block you as you are NUTS.

I have cited even your own study, which proved you wrong.

I find your inability @ common sense funny tbh.

grim

03-16-2013, 11:10 PM

Again you IDIOT I use fishoil. My god man.
COMMON SENSE HIGH DOSES can cause bleeding.
1 study does not equate to every warning and every other documentation being false but nice try.
This is common sense to ANYONE with 1/2 a functioning brain.
Even your own study talked about it FFS!

joebob

03-16-2013, 11:11 PM

Just look at the numbers.

"however, the difference was not statistically significant"

LOL please block me I tried to be respectful..yet you have no intention of being so yourself so please!

You clearly did not read the study as you proved me wrong by reading one part and ignoring the findings.

grim

03-16-2013, 11:13 PM

and again your own study!

taking fish oil, mean dose 3000 mg with unspecified omega-3 content

Do you even read before you clap your own hands?!

grim

03-16-2013, 11:14 PM

Just look at the numbers.

"however, the difference was not statistically significant"

LOL please block me I tried to be respectful..yet you have no intention of being so yourself so please!
get some intelligence, your own studies disprove your points.
My god!

joebob

03-16-2013, 11:15 PM

and again your own study!

taking fish oil, mean dose 3000 mg with unspecified omega-3 content

Do you even read before you clap your own hands?!

With a drug and aspirin and you know damn well if you can read..that will have a greater increase in effect then fish oil alone and it still showed no significant difference!

grim

03-16-2013, 11:18 PM

With a drug and aspirin and you know damn well if you can read..that will have a greater increase in effect then fish oil alone and it still showed no significant difference!
umm dummy they are different compounds that act totally different on the blood.
I have been on all and have been told I can take the same amount of fishoil as if i wasnt on them.

You obviously have ZERO clue...

grim

03-16-2013, 11:21 PM

so as it stands the only studies including yours talk about increased bleeding.

Besides 1 where the people were taking the 3 gram accepted safe dose.

and this is your proof that high doses are safe?

wow...

You better tell every doctor they are wrong...

grim

03-16-2013, 11:24 PM

I ignored that fool, honestly hope nobody is buying what he's selling.
Even his own studies cited dont back him up :/

joebob

03-16-2013, 11:34 PM

umm dummy they are different compounds that act totally different on the blood.
I have been on all and have been told I can take the same amount of fishoil as if i wasnt on them.

You obviously have ZERO clue...

Oh I must be the one who has zero clue...

Plavix (clopidogrel) keeps the platelets in your blood from coagulating (clotting) to prevent unwanted blood clots

Fish oil is known to inhibit platelet aggregation and therefore acts as an anticoagulant.

An anticoagulant is a substance that prevents coagulation (clotting) of blood.

Same results different means of achieving it...so yes you were very close to being right.

The reason you were told that you could take them both is probably the study I posted.

Greenegorilla2

03-16-2013, 11:37 PM

Sheesh, glad y'all hashed it out haha.

joebob

03-16-2013, 11:47 PM

Sheesh, glad y'all hashed it out haha.

I'm not getting all butt hurt here lol

Greenegorilla2

03-17-2013, 02:00 AM

I'm not getting all butt hurt here lol
Good, we are all grown here!