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    Thread: gyno

    1. #1
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      gyno

      I great results out of novadex,but from past use without antiestrogen,have small amount of gyno tissue ,is there anyway of getting rid of this with surgery?
      (SHOW UP & BLOW UP)

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      Here is a gyno article that's been around for awhile. I'm not sure who the author is, but I pulled this copy off of forums.steroids.com

      Hope this helps bro......

      All you need to know about GYNO.

      I am posting this thread to help answer all of the questions regarding gyno prevention and reversal, the use of letrozole and other anti-e’s. I will go over everything in very simple easy to understand language. Also we are talking about estrogen gyno here, not progesterone (but using letro will stop progesterone related problems as well since it inhibits all estrogen anyways). Progesterone gyno will be enlargement of your nipple area, the actual aereola, not a lump under it.

      Let me make this first point very clear, as I state in my signature this is from my personal experience, so whether you agree with it or not is your own issue. I have helped many people with gyno and it has worked just fine for them as well.

      To first understand why you are doing what you are doing I am going to go over a few things and a few definitions:

      SERMSelective estrogen receptor modulator. These drugs work by binding to the estrogen receptors and flooding them in a sense, making it difficult (but not impossible by any means) for estrogen to bind to the receptors and thus prevent the onset of estrogen related side effects.
      Most common forms: Tamoxifen (Nolvadex), Clomiphene (Clomid)
      AIAromatise Inhibitor. These drugs work by inhibiting the aromatization of estrogen. This means that in effect AI’s prevent androgens from converting to estrogen, again, making it difficult (but not impossible) for estrogen to reach receptor sites.
      Most common forms: Anastrozole (l-dex, a-dex), Exemestane (aromasin), Femera (letrozole). For our purpose of reversing gyno we are interested in Letro.

      Letro and your sex drive:
      Letrozole will suppress your sex drive. This is another reason why it is so important to act on preventing gyno as soon as possible. Since we all know that Test should be run in every cycle this will cancel out the effect of sex drive suppression.

      Running letro to prevent gyno:
      If you decide to run estrogen protection while on cycle (and I suggest you do unless you are aware that you do not require it), you can run either a SERM or an AI. Letro will be the most powerful AI you can use, it will inhibit 98+% of estrogen using a dose as low as .25mg and even lower. This is why I suggest you do not use a dose higher than .50mg while on cycle just trying to prevent estrogen related side effects.

      You will want to start running the letro approximately 2 weeks before you begin your cycle to allow it to fully stabilize in your blood. I have often heard the argument that letro takes up to 60 days to stabilize, I don’t know if I buy into this for the reason that I have reversed gyno after using letro for only 1 week. Still to be safe I recommend starting it before your cycle as stated above.

      If you do decide to run letro there is absolutely no need to run another AI or SERM. Do not make the mistake of thinking more is better. Think of it this way; if letro is preventing the conversion of androgens to estrogen than there is no estrogen, what would the purpose of a SERM be when there is no estrogen to bind to the receptors? Nolva will only take away from the effectiveness of letro.

      This brings me to my next point. Do not listen to anyone who tells you to bump up your nolvadex to 60+mg ED if you get gyno. I have no idea where this idea started but I have seen it suggest far too many times recently. Nolvadex will do nothing to reverse your gyno…let me make that clear IT WILL DO NOTHING FOR GYNO. If you are running nolva as your anti-e and start to develop gyno than sure you can bump the dosage a small amount to try to prevent it from progressing further, but letrozole must begin ASAP.

      It is very important that you begin taking letrozole immediately, the longer your wait the more risk you take in not being able to reverse it.

      How do I know if I have gyno?
      If you have developed gyno you will have a lump behind your nipple. It will be fairly hard, and it will be tender to touch.

      Running letro to reverse gyno:
      I am going to go over the three different scenarios which people could fit into. Remember regardless of what scenario you are in it is important that you begin taking the letro ASAP.

      1. Already using an anti-e aside from letro.
      2. Already using letro @ a dose of .25mg or .50mg ED.
      3. Not running any estrogen protection.

      1.
      Day 1: .25mg Letro + anti-e*
      Day 2: .50mg Letro
      Day 3: 1.0mg Letro
      Day 4: 1.5mg Letro
      Day 5: 2.0mg Letro
      Day 6: 2.5mg Letro **

      2.
      Day 1: .50mg Letro
      Day 2: 1.0mg Letro
      Day 3: 1.5mg Letro
      Day 4: 2.0mg Letro
      Day 5: 2.5mg Letro **

      3.
      Day 1: .50mg Letro
      Day 2: 1.0mg Letro
      Day 3: 1.5mg Letro
      Day 4: 2.0mg Letro
      Day 5: 2.5mg Letro **

      *Regardless of the anti-e you are using it is important to still use it for the first day you begin letro as the letro will not have taken any effect and you by no means want your body to be without any protection when gyno is already prevalent.

      ** You will remain at this dose until gyno symptoms subside. Once you believe your gyno is gone it is important to stay at this dose for another 4-7 days to ensure all traces are gone. I recommend people with a bf% over 15 stay on for a week as it may be harder to judge completely whether the lump is completely gone. Once this period is over it will be important to taper letro down slowly rather than coming off it completely. Regardless of which manner you tapered up your dose you will all taper down in the same fashion.

      Day 1: 2.0mg
      Day 2: 1.5mg
      Day 3: 1.0mg
      Day 4: .50mg***
      Day 5: .25mg
      ***You can remain at this dose or go down further to .25mg. It is really up to you at this point. They are both very common maintenance doses as an anti-e while on cycle. Personally I have stayed with .25mg and never had a problem.

      Letro and the estrogen rebound:
      With your estrogen being completely inhibited there is a definite estrogen rebound as your body tries to re-stabilize the testosterone :estrogen balance. We can prevent this rebound effect by supplementing further with another AI or SERM. So, I suggest that when you are coming to the end of your cycle you will more than likely be using Nolva in your PCT so just make sure that you begin taking nolva the last day you are going to take your letro and then continue on as you would with regular PCT.

      This now leads us into the question of reversing gyno while not on cycle. There are a few things to remember here. You have already waited longer than you should have, and your sex drive will be shot. You can use tribulus or another natural test booster to help you in this scenario but I can’t guarantee the effectiveness. Just follow gyno reversal protocols 2 or 3. When coming off again you must taper and begin using nolvadex to prevent any rebound effect that may occur.

      How much nolvadex should you use if you are not going into PCT and running this off cycle? I suggest starting at 20mg ED for a week and then lowering it to 10mg for another week and then coming off completely.

      I hope this covers most of the issues, still feel free to PM me if you have questions. But make sure you read the entire post first.


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      Some other good info on finding a qualified gyno surgeon....www.gynecomastia.org/smf/index.php?topic=16474.0

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      DHT Cream For Reversing Gyno
      Here are some abstracts:
      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2775814


      Gynecomastia : effect of prolonged treatment with dihydrotestosterone by the percutaneous route, Presse Med. 1983 Jan 8;12(1):21-5
      [Article in French]


      Gynaecomastia is a frequent disorder, sometimes painful or psychologically disturbing. Percutaneous dihydrotestosterone (DHT) was used to treat 30 patients with idiopathic gynaecomastia (IG) and 17 patients in whom the condition was associated with hypogonadism. All patients complaining of pain were relieved. Breast enlargement regressed or was substantially reduced in 22 of the IG patients and in all cases with hypogonadism, except those with gonadal dysgenesis. Plasma levels of testosterone and 17 beta-estradiol were significantly lowered in patients with IG as compared with controls. There was a significant increase in plasma DHT levels and in plasma androgen/estradiol ratio in all cases. The beneficial effects of the drug were manifest within 1 to 2 months in responsive patients. These effects may be due to a local and/or systemic activity. It is suggested that this medium-term treatment without side-effects should be tried in all cases of hypogonadism with gynaecomastia and in IG before considering more drastic therapeutic measures.

      Successful percutaneous dihydrotestosterone treatment of gynecomastia occurring during highly active antiretroviral therapy: four cases and a review of the literature, Clin Infect Dis. 2001 Sep 15;33(6):891-3. Epub 2001 Aug 10


      Fourteen cases of gynecomastia occurring during highly active antiretroviral therapy (HAART) have been reported in the literature. To date, no specific therapeutic approach has been proposed, and gynecomastia has usually persisted. We report 4 new cases of HAART-induced gynecomastia that were successfully treated with percutaneous dihydrotestosterone gel.

      Studies on the treatment of idiopathic gynaecomastia with percutaneous dihydrotestosterone, Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 1983 Oct;19(4):513-20

      We have studied clinical and endocrine parameters in a group (group A) of forth men referred to us because of persistent idiopathic gynaecomastia (of more than 18 months duration), before and during the administration of percutaneous dihydrotestosterone (DHT). The endocrine parameters (testosterone (T), 17 beta-oestradiol (E2), DHT, gonadotrophins (FSH and LH) and prolactin (PRL), were compared to those of control groups of 12 healthy men on DHT therapy (group B) and 10 on placebo (group C). Local administration of DHT was followed by the complete disappearance of gynaecomastia in 10 patients, partial regression in 19 and no change in 11 patients after 4 to 20 weeks of percutaneous DHT (125 mg twice daily). Before treatment the T + DHT/E2 ratio was significantly (P less than 0.001) lower in group A 244 +/- 21 (SEM) than in groups B and C (361 +/- 21) while T, DHT and E2 concentrations were all within the normal range. During DHT treatment plasma hormone levels were measured in 26 patients from group A: DHT levels increases significantly (day 0: 1.63 +/- 0.14 nmol/l; day 15: 12.8 +/- 1.6 nmol/l, P less than 0.001) while T and E2 levels fell significantly (T: day 0: 22.6 +/- 1.2 nmol/l; day 15: 11.0 +/- 1.5 nmol/l, P less than 0.001; E2: day 0: 110.5 +/- 7.12 pmol/l; day 15: 86.79 +/- 9.4 pmol/l, P less than 0.01). The T/E2 ratio decreased from 231 +/- 20 to 164 +/- 27 (P less than 0.05) while the T + DHT/E2 ratio increased significantly (P less than 0.02) to a normal mean value (day 15: 354 +/- 57).(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)

      Last edited by Razor; 08-09-2012 at 07:32 PM.

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      16 Ways to Fight Gynecomastia

      By Eric M. Potratz

      Eric M. Potratz has developed his education in the field of endocrinology and performance enhancement through years of research, counseling, and real world experience. Over the past five years he has been a private consultant for hundreds of athletes and bodybuilders alike, and is the founder & president of Primordial Performance.




      Gynecomastia = Gyno


      Most people think the only way to combat gyno is to use Nolvadex or Clomid. Considering the undesirable side-effects of these drugs, I generally don’t prefer these as the first line of defense. I have expressed my concerns about SERM’s in my article – Clomid & Nolvadex – The Dark Side.

      In this article I summarize alternative methods for combating the occurrence of gyno. The advice given in this article is the result of over 10 years experience in counseling individuals with AAS induced gyno.

      If you have gyno as a result of an endocrine disorder, I advise consulting your doctor before making changes to your prescribed medical regimen.

      You Do Not Have Gyno!


      During mammary tissue growth (the onset of gyno), you may notice the following symptoms -


      • Puffy or swollen nipples
      • Overly sensitive nipples
      • Itchiness around the nipples

      Editorial note: I promise -- that is the last time I will ever say nipples.

      Now, just because you may have these symptoms does not mean you HAVE GYNO. It simply means that you HAVE GYNO SYMPTOMS. Remember, it is normal to have a small flat pea sized lump under the nipple. This is NOT gyno.

      Now, if you allow these above symptoms to progress for several weeks then you may develop gyno. So if you are experiencing any of the above symptoms then you are smart to take action before it’s too late – But please stop emailing me saying you “have gyno” after 3 days on a cycle – this is physiologically impossible.

      The good news is that even if you do have a slight case of gyno that you developed from a cycle, it’s probably 100% reversible. Read on…

      Nipples.


      Gyno Hysteria


      No level of gyno is “permanent”. Any level of gyno can be reversed by dietary, supplemental and/or hormonal intervention. Mammary tissue (gyno) can be catabolized like any other tissue in the body. It’s just a matter of creating the right physiological environment within your body. Therefore, as far as I’m concerned, all gyno is temporary or semi-permanent at worse.

      Here are the basic levels of gyno -

      Level 1 – A dime sized glandular lump – which can emerge as soon as 2-3 weeks after “gyno symptoms” appear. This type of gyno can transform into a more serious level 2 gyno if left untreated for more than 4-6 weeks. In most cases, this initial level 1 gyno disappears once the hormonal environment improves, which is generally 2-3 weeks after the inflicting steroids clear the system.

      Level 2 – A quarter sized glandular lump. This type of gyno does not completely disappear on its own, but may gradually shrink to “Level 1” size after discontinuing the inflicting steroids. Completely reversing level 2 gyno requires aggressive dietary and supplemental intervention in conjunction with prescription grade drugs.

      Generally, the levels of gyno can be referred to in the following way –

      level 1 = temporary

      level 2 = semi-permanent

      Be warned, if gyno is allowed to grow large enough, the cost of surgery may be more cost efficient than trying to battle the gyno through drug and lifestyle changes – which could otherwise take months or years of intervention.

      Following the 16 points below will help you prevent and reverse level 1 & 2 gyno -


      The 16 Points
      Consider all the following points. Remember, there are many factors that can contribute to gyno and performing just a handful of the points below may be the key to avoiding gyno all together.

      1. Your naturally occurring 5a-reduced metabolites are your friends in preventing and reversing gyno. 5a-reduced metabolites include androsterone, androstanedione, androstanediol and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) as the most powerful 5a-reduced hormone. These hormones help prevent gyno by lowering estrogen and blocking the effect of estrogen at the hormone receptor. (1-8) Unless you have serious androgen related hair loss you want to keep your 5a-reduced metabolites relatively high to avoid gyno.

      Methods for increasing 5a-reduced metabolites (DHT) are listed in preferred order –

      Topical testosterone applied to the scrotum will rapidly increase DHT levels with minimal estrogen conversion. (for more information on topical steroids, read this article)
      Use a DHT pro-hormone such as androsterone, found in AndroHard. This will raise DHT with zero risk of estrogen conversion.
      Injectable testosterone along with an AI to prevent excessive estrogen conversion.
      High dose oral 4-DHEA or DHEA along with an AI to prevent excessive estrogen conversion.
      2. If you are concerned about gyno, avoid finesteride at all costs. It lowers all 5a-reduced metabolites to undesirable levels and has an extremely long half-life which continues to suppress DHT levels long after discontinuing the drug. (9) Progesterone would be a better anti-DHT alternative if you are concerned with hair loss. Plus, progesterone can clear the system within 24hrs making a mistake in dosing much less risky.

      3. Almost all sources of gyno can be linked back to having insufficient levels of 5a-reduced metabolites in the body. In theory, any amount of estrogen/progesterone can be blocked by sufficient DHT. (10-14) Also, high DHT and enlargement of the prostate is a myth, however high estrogen and high DHT can lead to an inflamed prostate, so you want to at least make an effort to keep estrogen in a normal range. (14)

      4. Trenbolone, TREN, Nandrolone can cause gyno because they lack a potent 5a-reduced metabolite (dihydronandrolone is weaker than dihydrotestosterone). (15) If you are worried about gyno from progestational steroids you should consider boosting your 5a-reduced metabolites during the cycle (mentioned above). This can avoid most if not all of the gyno problems associated with progestational hormones. I should mention here that aromatase inhibitors alone (AI’s) will not help prevent gyno from progestational compounds. It is the antagonistic action of 5a-reduced hormones that is required.

      5. Nothing is going to antagonize estrogen at the estrogen receptor (ER) better than actual DHT. While DHT derivatives or analogs such as Anavar, Winstrol, Masteron, Epistane, Superdrone, ect may be 5a-reduced, they cannot convert to actual DHT and thus cannot directly inhibit gyno at the receptor level (since they lack the ultra-high binding affinity for the AR that true DHT possesses). (16)

      6. Natural anti-estrogens (resveratrol, chrysin, I3C, DIM, ect) are great for PCT and can stimulate the HPTA and manage healthy estrogen metabolism, but they are not strong enough to prevent aromatization from high doses of aromatizing steroids. Don’t rely on these to prevent gyno during a cycle.

      7. Reducing prolactin will reduce the overall stimulation on mammary growth. Suppressing prolactin is useful as a temporary method to help slow or stop gyno growth. However, continuing anti-prolactin treatment is not recommended to be continued beyond 8 weeks. Methods of suppressing prolactin include –

      Vitex at 460mg/day
      Vitamin B6 at 200-400mg/day
      Mucuna Pruriens (15%-20% L-Dopa) 4-6g/day
      Increasing DHT may also lower prolactin release (17)
      8. Don’t fiddle with your nipples. This increases prolactin release which can make gyno worse.

      9. IGF-1, GH, insulin and prolactin are all potent growth factors in gyno growth. Limiting these hormones will reduce the likelihood of experiencing gyno symptoms. “Bulking” (aka., eating-a-****load-of-everything) will increase most of the growth factors listed above. Cutting calories (especially carbohydrates) will suppress insulin and IGF-1 therefore reducing the overall stimulatory effect on mammary growth. Ketogenic diet = less risk of gyno.

      10. Body fat (adipose tissue) is the main site for androgens to convert to estrogens. Therefore, being overweight or having high body fat increases your gyno risk. This is another good reason to go on a cutting cycle if you are gyno prone. Reducing body fat will lower your rate of estrogen conversion from aromatizing steroids. (18)

      11. Caffeine consumption can inhibit clearance of estrogen from the liver by competing for the P-450 oxidase system. Avoid caffeine if you are concerned about high estrogen levels.

      12. Avoid supplements containing forskolin if concerned about gyno. Forskolin increases aromatase activity via cAMP modulation and can increase formation of estrogen. (23,24)

      13. Increasing fiber intake (both soluble and insoluble) can enhance clearance of estrogens from the intestines. Research shows that increasing fiber intake in humans can reduce estrogen levels by up to 22%. (19)

      14. Reducing estrogen below the normal range (such as over dosing arimidex, letrozol, aromasin or formestane) can eventually reduce SHBG levels, thus allowing more estrogen to freely circulate (by offsetting it from SHBG). Higher levels of freely circulating estrogen can amplify breast tissue growth (20). SHBG also appears to have anti-estrogenic effects at the cell receptor level. (21, 22) Avoiding over suppression of SHBG will reduce your gyno risk.

      15. Don’t be afraid to lower the dose mid cycle. People have a tendency to panic at the first sign of gyno and drop everything. Generally, just lowering the dose of the afflicting steroid can offer gyno relief within 4-5 days.

      16. Save SERM’s as your last resort against gyno. You do not need a SERM (tormifene, clomid or nolva) to avoid gyno from a properly planned cycle. If you are still having gyno problems after following the above points, consider the fact that you have a poorly planned cycle and you need to revaluate the compounds you have chosen.



      References –

      1. Dihydrotestosterone may inhibit hypothalamo-pituitary-adrenal activity by acting through estrogen receptor in the male mouse.
      Lund TD, et al.
      Neurosci Lett. 2004 Jul 15;365(1):43-7.

      2. Androgen-induced inhibition of proliferation in human breast cancer MCF7 cells transfected with androgen receptor.
      Szelei J, et al.
      Tufts University School of Medicine, Department of Anatomy and Cellular Biology, Boston, Massachusetts 02111, USA.

      3. The non-aromatizable androgen, dihydrotestosterone, induces antiestrogenic responses in the rainbow trout.
      Shilling AD, et al.
      Agricultural and Life Sciences Building, room 1007, Oregon State University, Corvallis, OR 97331, USA.

      4. The androgen 5alpha-dihydrotestosterone and its metabolite 5alpha-androstan-3beta, 17beta-diol inhibit the hypothalamo-pituitary-adrenal response to stress by acting through estrogen receptor beta-expressing neurons in the hypothalamus.
      Lund TD, et al.
      J Neurosci. 2006 Feb 1;26(5):1448-56.

      5. Steroid modulation of aromatase activity in human cultured breast carcinoma cells.
      Perel E, et al.
      J Steroid Biochem. 1988 Apr;29(4):393-9.

      6. Aromatase activity in the breast and other peripheral tissues and its therapeutic regulation.
      Killinger DW, et al.
      Steroids. 1987 Oct-Dec;50(4-6):523-36. Review.

      7. The intracellular control of aromatase activity by 5 alpha-reduced androgens in human breast carcinoma cells in culture.
      Perel E, et al
      J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1984 Mar;58(3):467-72.

      8. FSH-induced aromatase activity in porcine granulosa cells: non-competitive inhibition by non-aromatizable androgens.
      Chan WK, et al
      J Endocrinol. 1986 Mar;108(3):335-41.

      9. The effect of 5 alpha-reductase inhibitors on erectile function.
      Canguven O, Burnett AL.
      J Androl. 2008 Sep-Oct;29(5):514-23.

      10. Comparative Pharmacokinetics of Three Doses of Percutaneous Dihydrotestosterone Gel in Healthy Elderly Men – A Clinical Research Center Study*
      C. Wang et al.
      Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism Vol. 83, No. 8 (1998)

      11. Successful percutaneous dihydrotestosterone treatment of gynecomastia occurring during highly active antiretroviral therapy: four cases and a review of the literature.
      Benveniste O et al.
      Clin Infect Dis. 2001 Sep 15;33(6):891-3.

      12. Gynecomastia: effect of prolonged treatment with dihydrotestosterone by the percutaneous route.
      Kuhn J et al.
      Presse Med 12;21-25. (1983)

      13. Percutaneous dihydrotestosterone (DHT) treatment. In: Nieschlag E, Behre HM, eds. Testosterone: action, deficiency substitution.
      Schaison G, Nahoul K, Couzinet B.
      Berlin: Springer Verlag; 155–164. (1990)

      14. Transdermal dihydrotestosterone and treatment of ‘andropause’.
      de Lignieres B.
      Ann Med 1993;25: 235–41.

      15. Metabolism and receptor binding of nandrolone and testosterone under invitro and invivo conditions.
      Bergink et al.
      Acta Endocrinol Suppl (Copenh). 271:31-7, 1985

      16. Pharmacology of Reproduction
      David E, et al.
      Principles of Pharmacology (second edition) p. 510 (2008)

      17. Antagonism of estrogen-induced prolactin release by dihydrotestosterone.
      Brann DW, et al.
      Biol Reprod. 1989 Jun;40(6):1201-7.

      18. Aromatase – a brief overview
      Simpson ER, et al
      Annu Rev Physiol. 64:93-127, 2002

      19. Dietary fiber intake and endogenous serum hormone levels in naturally postmenopausal Mexican American women: the Multiethnic Cohort Study.
      Monroe KR et al.
      Nutr Cancer. 2007;58(2):127-35.

      20. Williams Textbook of Endocrinology.
      Wilson, et al.
      9th ED. Philadelphia: Saunders, 1997

      21. Sex steroid binding protein receptor (SBP-R) is related to a reduced proliferation rate in human breast cancer.
      Catalano MG, et al.
      Breast Cancer Res Treat. 42(3):227-34, 1997

      22. Biological relevance of the interaction between sex steroid binding protein and its specific receptor of MCF-7 cells under SBP and estradiol treatment.
      Fissore F, et al.
      Steroids, 59(11):661-7, 1994

      23. Progestin-dependent effect of forskolin on human endometrial aromatase activity.
      Tseng L, Malbon CC, Lane B, Kaplan C, Mazella J, Dahler H, Tseng A.
      Hum Reprod. 1987 Jul;2(5):371-7.

      24. Forskolin up-regulates aromatase (CYP19) activity and gene transcripts in the human adrenocortical carcinoma cell line H295R.
      Watanabe M, Nakajin S.
      J Endocrinol. 2004 Jan;180(1):125-33.

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      Nice info,many thanks
      (SHOW UP & BLOW UP)

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      Awesome thread. Saving it as a favorite.

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      Has anyone here ever heard of anyone getting gyno with out getting any of the puffy and sensitive symptoms ?

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      Yes, there are a few types of gyno, Some just get a small pea shape hard lump and have no noticeable visual changes

      Quote Originally Posted by 707boy View Post
      Has anyone here ever heard of anyone getting gyno with out getting any of the puffy and sensitive symptoms ?

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      Largerthannormal's Avatar
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      Hondo, I am not sure how bad your case.

      I have personally had the surgery and I also have walked a few people through a few reversal procedures.

      If you need any help feel free to PM me a pic so we can see how bad we are talking. Or if you need any advice let me know.




      PS beanlicker, great posts!!

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