Thread: HCG needed for TRT patients?

I haven’t heard that NAC keeps your from desensitizing. Interesting. NAC is great for a variety of reasons - it increases glutathione levels and high glutathione keeps your organs young and toxin free.

At 52 and having two young adult children and not wanting any more kids - I probably do not need to take HCG but for me it makes me feel better from a male ego standpoint that my testicles are not the size of peas and that if somehow there is no way to get testosterone in this world because of a massive shortage or ban that I might have a better chance at getting my testicles working and not losing all of the muscles.

Not sure you remember all the posts about Dr Aggarwal in the journal of molecular and cellular endocrinology 5 years ago where he ran a study on HCG desensitization and the use of NAC to keep that from happening. It has been stated that long term/frequent/high dosage HCG use causes desensitization of the Leydig cells because it increases oxidative stress and cellular death. The premise of the study was that if you could reduce oxidative stress you would reduce HCG desensitization. One of the most effective antioxidants for reducing oxidative stress is glutathione which can be increased by directly injecting glutathione or the use of oral NAC which is a precursor of glutathione. The study used NAC. The great thing about Glutathione IMO is that it is like sticky paper to the toxins in your body - grabbing them so they can be flushed out - for AAS the benefits can be significant.

Their study had some problems in terms of the test groups - the glutathione levels of each participant at the start was not measured (someone with good or existing levels of glutathione is going to get more Leydig cell benefit from increased glutathione than someone with low levels where additional glutathione will be grabbed by the body for reducing oxidative stress elsewhere) and also even with the test group that had daily hcg use, NAC was used at most 2x a week vs daily. Where hcg / NAC use were matched similarly - the NAC did reduce desensitization and improve Leydig cell function - I.e. 250 iu of hcg 2 x a week and NAC used 1 or 2 days a week. In the other groups it was not effective - IMO it was partially because the NAC use was less than the HCG use and also because frequent high hcg use causes excessive damage and cell death that might not be reversible - again IMO only. The participants could also have had different levels of glutathione at the start.

Again like with AAS more is not better

i have seen various drs for TRT treatment before I started blasting and cruising and while each were proponents of taking 250 iu of hcg 2 x a week to keep my Leydig cells stimulated - not one brought up desensitization or the possibility of it.

There is effects on testicular atrophy while supplementing with TRT. Dr John Crisler, specifically the Crisler HCG Protocol is a good read. If you have access to peer-reviewed databases then you might find the following study. “My Current Best Thoughts on How to Administer TRT for Men”, published in A4M’s 2004/5 Anti-Aging Clinical Protocols. You can also look the uses of HCG on the Merck PI https://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi...pregnyl_pi.pdf That fat diet of HCG really put a lot of doctors off on HCG and they have not kept current.

Is it a must, NO, is it a must for me, YES. Here is what I can tell you from my own personal study of just me with TRT and HCG . Ran TRT for years without it. I do have primary hypogonadism. Running TRT without HCG my balls slowly shrunk up and started to hurt. It was slow and gradual but it got to the point that I had to do something about it. I like my nuts, don't like pain, and I like the boys to hang.

As soon as I started HCG my balls started to fill back up. I was on 200IU daily for a couple of months until they came back fully. I still run HCG at a higher level than 500IU per week due to I personally feel like they make the ball feel better, better sex life and confidence. If I had to pay cash for both Test and HCG, I would drop my TRT levels to make sure I had HCG.

So at an older age and having kids is not very important than HCG is not a must have but I would recommend it. It will take a while on low dose test before you really start to feel the effect on the boys. Hope this helps.

Originally Posted by babybull34

This is solid advice to combat the estro-sides. Personally, I am of the camp that HCG is more of a aesthetic issue than a functional issue on TRT. Long term use of HCG will cause a de-sensitization to FH and LSH, which is counterproductive. Additionally, HCG will increase estro-sides.

Now, I am not saying don't use HCG. It has it's place, even on TRT, but I do not believe it should be used ongoing on a weekly basis. I am sure that many others will disagree. However, if it was a requirement for proper TRT Endo's would be prescribing it with the Test. This is actually incredibly rare. Most Endo's won't even talk about.

Y a I agree every Endo I’ve been to for my trt(4 at the moment) none of them will even talk about HCG or testing for estradiol!! It’s so hard here to get an Endo to prescribe anything but test they won’t even talk about the other all say it’s useless


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Originally Posted by babybull34

This is solid advice to combat the estro-sides. Personally, I am of the camp that HCG is more of a aesthetic issue than a functional issue on TRT. Long term use of HCG will cause a de-sensitization to FH and LSH, which is counterproductive. Additionally, HCG will increase estro-sides.

Now, I am not saying don't use HCG. It has it's place, even on TRT, but I do not believe it should be used ongoing on a weekly basis. I am sure that many others will disagree. However, if it was a requirement for proper TRT Endo's would be prescribing it with the Test. This is actually incredibly rare. Most Endo's won't even talk about.

Not arguing I like you, especially your attitude but the only study I have read that showed any sort of desensitization was a study in rats in which the rats were given an equivalent dose that would be 7500iu to the average human.
Even in the rats though sensitivity returned in a couple of weeks after administration ceased. I personally never believed it. My testicles have atrophied some even with the use of hcg.

I have always considered the desensitization an overblown myth based off an incomplete study.

This is obviously a very discussed thing as some endos will. Or will not prescribe it with trt. Time will tell maybe.

Originally Posted by babybull34

Unfortunately, we are all wading through the dark here, big guy. Just trying to figure it out because we can't count on Endo's, doctors, or researchers to do it.

I have seen several studies alluding to the desensitization. I will try and find them to give you some links. Really though, studies are just that, studies. They don't always translate to the real-world. We have all seen that play out time and again.

I'm glad the HCG protocol is working for Redwood and Sam Gold and I appreciate them sharing. This is what we need. INFORMATION.

Every time I have run HCG on cycle, my nuts swell for two days and then shrink but I get immediate estro-sides, BLOATING big time and itchy nips. So I inject the HCG then immediately go into damage control on AI's, the process takes a week to level, my balls were full for two days, and then it's time to do it all again. Then on top of it there is the potential to desensitize enough that it becomes necessary for life. TRT + HCG.

Despite this, I am still open to discuss, learn, and try different things. I have ran HCG during cycle at 250mcg 2x Week, 500mcg 2x week, and 500mcg 1x week. All same results. Do you have a different protocol you would suggest, born? Have you ever microdosed the HCG daily or heard anyone else doing so?

Say HCG 100mcg/ED or 50mcg/ED?

I see, I thought you were basing your opinion off studies.

I actually dose 1000iu per week on heavy cycles. 500iu during trt. I can see zero benefit in microdosages.

Did you bloat when you worked out?

Btw its only the desensitization thing I dont agree with. I have never seen a conclusive study on it. I only saw studies that appeared to be leading toward a desired outcome like the mega dosed rats.